Wilde at the beginning and the end of sinking

Thomas and Dan, can one of you please check your copy of Geoffrey Marcus' book The Maiden Voyage for a reference for this "first sighting" of C/O Wilde as he supposedly hurried to the bridge and asked the Captain if it was serious? That implies that Captain Smith was already on the bridge by then and so the only person who could have actually witnessed that exchange and survived is Boxhall (Hichens was still within the wheelhouse), although QM Olliver is a possibility.
Hi Arun. I've just had a look and it is on page 131, and it is placed immediately after Boxhall returns to the bridge to give his report to the Captain after his first investigation below decks. This is what Marcus writes:

The Chief Officer then hurried to the bridge and asked the Captain whether he thought the damage was serious. 'Certainly,' was the reply. 'I'm afraid it's more than serious.' During this time Captain Smith had been to the wheel-house to look at the commutator, which was a small instrument mounted in front of the compass for indicating how the ship was listing. He observed to his consternation that it already showed a list of five degrees to starboard. 'Oh, my God!' he muttered in his beard.
I've included the next sentence about the commutator as it also reveals that Marcus created dialogue that was not necessarily based on any specific eyewitness account. The point about Smith seeing the commutator was actually from the testimony of Robert Hichens at both the American and British inquiries and in neither does he mention Smith muttering into his beard "Oh, my God!" as Marcus would have us believe. It shows the danger of historians putting words in the mouths of historical characters - and the ambiguity of a book sometimes quoting directly and other times inventing dialogue, and without specific attribution to be able to distinguish this (a personal bête noire of mine!). To me this indicates that Smith telling Wilde on the bridge that it is "more than serious" is most likely just literary dramatisation of both location and dialogue. Incidentally, Hichens places Smith at the commutator at the point when the Captain orders the lifeboats to be swung out, so it does not really align with Marcus' chronology anyway.
 
Hi Arun. I've just had a look and it is on page 131, and it is placed immediately after Boxhall returns to the bridge to give his report to the Captain after his first investigation below decks.
Thanks Dan. I sort of thought that the source moust have been Boxhall - it seems like Marcus interviewed the former 4/O during the research into his book. Of course, Captain Smith, Murdoch, Moody and Andrews died in the sinking and as far as I am aware Lightoller makes no allusion it either in his two testimonies or in his 1935 book. Olliver died in 1934 and Hichens in 1940, long before Marcus, then still a relatively young man, undertook research into his project.
 
No problem Arun. Although Boxhall's witness accounts were problematic in 1912 and they certainly had not improved by the 1960s! For example, he spoke of Moody surviving in his 1962 account. So if Marcus did interview Boxhall during the 60s I wouldn't necessarily place a huge amount of trust in the level of accuracy. I am presently revising my biography of Boxhall so will cross-check Marcus' book and see what else I can find.
 
Thanks Dan. The point is that whether the encounter between Captain Smith and C/O Wilde on the bridge took place exactly as mentioned in The Madien Voyage or not, it looks likely that the source of that (mis)information was Boxhall in the early 1960s.
I think you are right about the source Arun. As I go back through Marcus' book I noticed something I had overlooked before. In the acknowledgements he mentions meeting Boxhall "on an autumn night several years ago" and that he "related for my benefit the story of the Titanic disaster as it had concerned him, the Fourth Officer. It was a most moving and memorable experience; for the Commander narrated the final scenes of the tragedy in great detail, exactly as if it had all happened only the week before."
 
The mystery with Chief Officer Wilde is that with his cabin being closer than anyone else's to the navigating bridge and practically next to the wheelhouse, it is inconceivable that he was not alerted by the sounds and activity on the bridge in the minute that followed the Titanic's collision with the iceberg. The answer therefore must be that the Chief Officer was alerted and reacted quickly; and yet, none of the 3 survivors who were there right then or arrived soon afterwards - Hichens, Olliver and Boxhall - mentioned seeing Wilde on the bridge. True, the fact that they did not specifically mention the C/O did not necessarily mean that he wasn't there, but reading their testimonies, one would have thought there would have been at least a passing mention of Wilde had one or more of them seen him.....but AFAIK, there was not. Boxhall said that when he arrived on the bridge, he saw Captain Smith, Murdoch and Moody together; had he seen Wilde anywhere nearby, surely the 4/O would have mentioned it? Wilde's encounter with Captain Smith about which Boxhall told to Geoffrey Marcus in the 1960s, if true, seems to have taken place a bit later, when the potential seriousness of the situation had started to become more apparent.

I have a theory about why none of those 3 survivors noticed Wilde in the first few minutes after the collision, but please understand that it's just a theory based on - at best - circumstantial evidence.
  • With his port side cabin door and window closed against the cold, IMO Wilde, assuming that he was asleep at the time, would not have heard the bells from the crow's nest.
  • In the 20 seconds or so that followed the bells, there were a lot of sounds on the bridge; ringing of the loudspeaker telephone, Moody's response and yelled message, Murdoch's shouted orders etc. IMO, those sounds would have woken and alerted Wilde and experienced officer that he was, he would have rushed out on to the bridge. IMO, he would have got there within 30 seconds after the bells, well ahead of anyone else.
  • At that time QM Olliver was approaching the bridge but still about 130 to 150 feet away, far enough not to have heard Murdoch's first helm order. I know there are conflicting opinions about this, but I am one of those who believe that Olliver was approaching on the port side of the boat deck and with that distance to the bridge and relative darkness, did not see the figure of Wilde darting from his cabin onto the bridge.
  • On the navigating bridge, Wilde would have seen Murdoch rushing around to the engine telegraphs; IMO Moody quickly informed Wilde what had happened and the Chief Officer then went to the starboard wing to get a good look at the closing iceberg just as the bow started to swing to port.
  • Hichens, completely preoccupied within the enclosed wheelhouse carrying out Murdoch's helm orders, did not notice Wilde's brief presence on the navigating bridge.
  • Olliver testified that he was almost to the bridge when he felt the shock of the first impact. As he hurried on to the bridge itself, he saw Murdoch at the WTD lever and then the iceberg drift past the starboard wing. I know that the QM did not say anything about seeing Wilde on the wing, but it is quite possible that in the stressful moment did not mentally register the C/O's presence there.
  • From what Hichens testified, ("the junior officer and the quartermaster at my shoulder") it seems like Moody and Olliver then moved into the wheelhouse with Wilde still on the starboard wing, probably looking at the berg as it moved sternwards.
  • Captain Smith arrived on the bridge and took over, learned what had happened and ordered Olliver to find the carpenter and get him to sound the ship. As Olliver left the bridge to carry out the order Wilde returned to the navigating bridge, still unnoticed by Hichens within the wheelhouse. Boxhall had not arrived yet.
  • Either on Captain's orders or his own suggestion, Wilde then went forward to the well deck and forecastle to check for evidence of damage.
  • Boxhall arrived on the bridge and saw Captain Smith, Murdoch and Moody together just as he testified. While the 4/O might have gone with Smith and Murdoch to the starboard wing like he claimed, I have misgivings about his sighting of a "very small dark object that disappered into the night". I think he made that part up to support his lie that he arrived on the bridge well on time.
  • About 10 minutes after the impact, Wilde, still inspecting in the bow area, met Hemming and Foley to be told about the flooding of the forepeak tank.
  • The three men who had briefly met and interacted with Wilde - Murdoch, Moody and Captain Smith - all died in the sinking as did the Chief Officer himself.
I know this sounds like a nicely stiched up theory to fit into known events and survivor statements, which I admit it is to some extent. But we have to remember that Wilde was where he was and judging by his encounter with Hemming and Foley, appears to have been alerted quite early. So, there has to be some sort of explanation why Hichens, Olliver and Boxhall did not mention seeing the C/O in the first few minutes after the collision and I believe that the theory above is a plausible one.
 
>>>"The Chief Officer then hurried to the bridge and asked the Captain whether he thought the damage was serious."<<<

What that quote sounds like to me is something that came from Boxhall. Why, because it is the same type of language that Boxhall himself used when he arrived on the bridge after hearing someone report a light ahead.

[BI 15610] '... I encountered him [Smith] when reporting something to him, or something, and he was inquiring about the men going on with the work, and I said, “Yes, they are carrying on all right.” I said, “Is it really serious?” He said, “Mr. Andrews tells me he gives her from an hour to an hour and a half.”'

If Wilde "hurried to the bridge" it would have been for the same reason Smith hurried to the bridge shortly after the ship struck, to find out what had happened, as in "what have we struck?" Or, "what was that?" Smith was likely lying down resting on a settee in his quarters. He was out on the bridge within about a minute after impact according to Hichens. My guess is that Wilde arrived not long after Smith arrived, maybe just after Smith, Murduch and Boxhall went out on the starboard bridge wing to look for the berg. As far as asking about damage, Wilde himself would have reported about damage he was aware of after coming back from his trip forward when he found out that the peak tank was flooding, while Boxhall was below looking for damage on his first inspection below.
 
My guess is that Wilde arrived not long after Smith arrived, maybe just after Smith, Murduch and Boxhall went out on the starboard bridge wing to look for the berg.
I agree. I speculate that Wilde did not arrive until just after Smith for a few reasons:

1. If he had arrived during the initial commotion, that would have been particularly notable, and not entirely welcome.
2. Bridge protocol meant not interfering until called for when off-duty. Lightoller during his 1936 BBC radio broadcast explained why he waited in his cabin: "If I was wanted, naturally my cabin would be the first place where anyone sent for me would look. You see apart from being nearly frozen even an officer when on watch isn't exactly welcomed on the bridge either in pajamas or anything else."
3. After Smith appeared on the bridge, so did many members of the crew with reports etc - so Wilde's appearance henceforth would not have been particularly noteworthy - and hence would explain the absence of a specific mention, until his forecastle inspection.
 
Smith was likely lying down resting on a settee in his quarters. He was out on the bridge within about a minute after impact according to Hichens. My guess is that Wilde arrived not long after Smith arrived, maybe just after Smith, Murduch and Boxhall went out on the starboard bridge wing to look for the berg
I accept that is possible, but the nub that I have with that explanation is that Wilde's cabin was so much closer to the bridge that Captain Smith's, thus making it likely - if not a certainty - that the former was more likely to have heard the noises. Even if Wilde had not been alerted by the intial commotion on the bridge following sighting of the iceberg, he surely would have been so by the impact. In that case, one would have expected the Chief Officer to have reached the bridge a bit sooner than Captain Smith, but he was not seen - at least not mentioned - by Olliver.

If he had arrived during the initial commotion, that would have been particularly notable, and not entirely welcome. Bridge protocol meant not interfering until called for when off-duty.
Again possible, but would merely looking into the bridge to check what the commotion was about count as 'interference'? QM Olliver arrived on to the bridge even as the grinding impact was taking plave and saw Murdoch at the WTD lever and then the top of the iceberg drifting past the starboard wing.

Also, since Wilde was off duty at the time unlike Boxhall, the former would not have required the Captain's orders to go forward and check what was going on if the C/O had so chosen.

>>>"The Chief Officer then hurried to the bridge and asked the Captain whether he thought the damage was serious."<<<

What that quote sounds like to me is something that came from Boxhall. Why, because it is the same type of language that Boxhall himself used when he arrived on the bridge after hearing someone report a light ahead.
I agree with that completely.
 
Mr. LOWE. ... You must remember that we do not have any too much sleep and therefore when we sleep we die.
D'accord. But I would have thought that the impact per se would have jerked Wilde awake even if he had not been roused by the sounds earlier. In that case, I thought that he might have looked into the bridge before Captain Smith.

As I said earlier, I am just speculating based on survivors' statements but there are a few possibilities like you and the others have said.
 
Again possible, but would merely looking into the bridge to check what the commotion was about count as 'interference'? QM Olliver arrived on to the bridge even as the grinding impact was taking plave and saw Murdoch at the WTD lever and then the top of the iceberg drifting past the starboard wing.
The difference is that QM Olliver was on duty, while Wilde was not. Having a superior present can change, perhaps just momentarily or even superficially, the dynamics of giving and receiving orders. I am sure Wilde, as Lightoller said, would not want to interfere with the commands that were being given at the time and so entered the bridge as an observer once safe to do so. I personally think that as soon as Wilde heard or saw Smith questioning Murdoch on the bridge he decided to join and see what he could do to help.

But of course, it is all speculation. For all we know Wilde couldn't sleep and was having a smoke outside or on the port wing bridge and was there all the time!
 
This is a very interesting thread that I am just now catching up on. Since the subject was brought up before, I wanted to make a quick observation or two about the alleged officer's suicide.

We need to be very careful when trying to ascribe a suicide to any particular person based upon what we know about them, what we know or think they did that night, how they were acting, etc. Fundamentally, I believe suicide in almost every case is an irrational act based upon emotion, stress and other intangible factors.

Having said that, IF we accept for the sake of argument that AN officer did in fact kill himself (which immediately sets us down a path of pure conjecture), or if some incontrovertible evidence came to light making such a fact inescapable, then I would suggest it would be Murdoch.

Regardless of how they behaved during the sinking (Murdoch joking, being active; Wilde being somewhat more difficult to pin down), my supposition would be based upon these notions: 1) as the officer in command at the time of the collision, I think it is reasonable to assume that he was likely already second guessing himself - his orders, his actions, etc. - and wondering what he could have done differently to have prevented the collision (regardless of whether he actually could have done anything else); 2) towards the end, when it was abundantly clear that there was going to be a horrendous death toll, I believe guilt would naturally have begun to set it; 3) he probably would have played it out in his mind that were he to survive, he surely would have been scapegoated in the press and in the public's mind, perhaps ending his opportunities for advancement in his profession or even worse ending it altogether, and 4) he might worry that his infamy would attach in some manner to his wife, affecting her life permanently.

IF he was in this frame of mind, he might fear that random chance might see him pulled to safety into a lifeboat after the ship had foundered. IF these stressors were enough to get him to a point where death seemed like the preferable option, there was one way to make sure it occurred.

Also, while Wilde had lost his wife I believe he had children to care for? And I believe Murdoch, while married, was childless?

As to the other officers to have perished - Smith and Moody - for reasons which may or may not make sense to others, I have always thought that Smith would have been to obvious- the rest all looked pretty much the same to most observers - and Moody, at 24 and at the start of an exciting career would, I think, have remained active throughout without giving much thought to the subject.

1st Officer Murdoch was undeniably a hero that night, and none of this speculation undermines that fact. Suicide is not a sign of weakness or cowardice or any other such thing (I am not suggesting that anyone here has implied this - but there are still too many people today who reflexively think of it that way).
 
Also, while Wilde had lost his wife I believe he had children to care for?
Wilde knew if he were to die his children would be taken care off. On the 14th of January 1911 he altered his will in which stood:
"I appoint my sister in law Mrs Annie Jones Williams to act with my trustees as the Guardian of my children during their minority and to be consulted by my trustees as to the education and advancement in life of my children until the youngest child attains the age of twenty one years..."
And I believe Murdoch, while married, was childless?
There is a hearsay tradition that Ada did state in later life that her only regret about her marriage to William was that they had no children, which could mean that possible, considering she approached an age where conception and childbirth would be more difficult, they could have been trying for a family. However this is purely speculative.
1) as the officer in command at the time of the collision, I think it is reasonable to assume that he was likely already second guessing himself - his orders, his actions, etc. - and wondering what he could have done differently to have prevented the collision (regardless of whether he actually could have done anything else);
If what Boxhall said was true, he knew he couldn't do more than he did already. Based on Murdoch his credentials being the only officer who passed all his examinations (second, first, master and extra-master) in one try together with preventing a collision on the SS Arabic (II) in 1904 by keeping the ship on course.
3) he probably would have played it out in his mind that were he to survive, he surely would have been scapegoated in the press and in the public's mind, perhaps ending his opportunities for advancement in his profession or even worse ending it altogether
And wouldn't Wilde have felt the same? He had made it to captain of the SS Zeeland and was soon to command the SS Cymric and suddenly he's in this disaster as well where the four surviving officers never made it to captain. The White Star Line would likely won't give him a command either then, but that would be purely speculative. Lightoller, Pitman and Lowe were off-duty as well like Wilde when the iceberg hit and still the Titanic disaster likely directly caused for their careers not to advance further.
4) he might worry that his infamy would attach in some manner to his wife, affecting her life permanently.
And how about Wilde then? Wouldn't the bad name of being the chief officer on the Titanic who survived while 1495 others survived be a stain to his family too? Like Mr. Ismay, some survivors would have stand up for Murdoch no doubt because they would own their lives to Murdoch.
IF he was in this frame of mind, he might fear that random chance might see him pulled to safety into a lifeboat after the ship had foundered. IF these stressors were enough to get him to a point where death seemed like the preferable option, there was one way to make sure it occurred.
The same applies to Wilde too. Why would you prefer a slow death in the water over a quick one (?), a chance to be reunited again with your wife, your two sons, your father whom you never met, your mother who died when you were 9 and your only living brother who died 11 years back.
As to the other officers to have perished - Smith and Moody - for reasons which may or may not make sense to others, I have always thought that Smith would have been to obvious- the rest all looked pretty much the same to most observers - and Moody, at 24 and at the start of an exciting career would, I think, have remained active throughout without giving much thought to the subject.
While captain Smith was armed most evidence points to him either being washed away from the bridge or jumping overboard (with the most evidence pointing to the later). The bottom-line is he ended up in the water.

As for Moody, it must be noted that there's no evidence he had a firearm with him. He wasn't present when the Webley revolvers were carried out shortly after lifeboat number 6 was lowered and while this is purely based on his character he doesn't seem to be the type to own a private pistol or revolver like fifth officer Lowe. An additional note I want to make it that Moody viewed his career on sea as only a temporary one.
1st Officer Murdoch was undeniably a hero that night, and none of this speculation undermines that fact. Suicide is not a sign of weakness or cowardice or any other such thing (I am not suggesting that anyone here has implied this - but there are still too many people today who reflexively think of it that way).
I personally don't think suicide in that situation would be a sign of weakness of cowardice either, but the point is that there is evidence to point out Murdoch was alive by the time the starboard side went under (this coming from second officer Lightoller and a second-hand story from scullion John Collins) with him being washed away, not to mention that studying Murdoch his life and career at sea (rose-coloured glasses excluded) he seems to be the type of model officer who wouldn't stop until he did everything he could.


I personally think an officer shot himself, and while we never will know the truth about it, or the identity of the officer I do believe the two likely officers were Wilde and Murdoch and with Wilde his letters being more public now-days I believe a hypothesis of Wilde his state of mind can be made at that moment, which wasn't possible back in 1999 when George Behe did the same on Murdoch. If it was Wilde, it in my book would be perhaps the most tragic end.
 
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