Will the whole truth be known some day?


agustin_arg

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Jul 21, 2014
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Greetings. I am new to this product. I am from Argentina and I speak Spanish language so sorry if is not well understood what I mean. remain surprised by the amount of information on the subject titanic is in English language, to give you an idea in Spanish there is only one forum titanic have public in 10 years 26 californian topic posts.


As I think happens to most theme californian is an issue that concerns us all on the subject of intrigue. reading the other day a user on this forum was saying that by the time we are uncertain about the subject, everything is divided between those who are in favor Lord, those who are against and neutral. each assumes his position and defends it, but no one has the absolute truth LEAST UNTIL NEW EVIDENCE ARISING.

And there my question appears: there is the possibility that new evidence aparescan more than 100 years after the events? if so what types of evidence could be? witness the fact is impossible. I can not think that evidence might be.

Because I believe that as many years have passed since the accident, it is very difficult to aparescan new evidence, that each will have to make an idea about what happened but we'll never know the exact truth.

There is the possibility that some trial and aparesca know the absolute truth about it californian?
 
Mar 22, 2003
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Augustin,

I do not believe any new evidence will appear after all these years. The only thing that is now certain is that the 8 rockets seen from Californian came from Titanic.

Nice picture of Messi on your profile page. Sorry about the final outcome. Argentina played well.
 
Dec 2, 2000
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I would have to say that the possibility of any new evidence coming up is extremely remote. All the principles involved as well as any possible witnesses are all long dead. For better or worse, the case is essentially closed.
 

Adam Went

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Apr 28, 2003
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Hi Agustin,

First of all, welcome! Nice to hear from Titanic enthusiasts in countries like Argentina.

To answer the question, I have to agree that the chance of any new evidence as such is unlikely now, 102 years after the fact. All of the original people involved have passed on and the only possibility in terms of new evidence would have to come from descendants of those people or historical papers. I'd imagine these have been looked through countless times already.

Having said that, a better possibility is that a new theory will arise, which is supported by the old evidence. I don't think there'll ever be any clear agreement on whether Stanley Lord and the Californian were in the right or the wrong (I hold to my personal belief that they were in the wrong) but historians will come up with new theories, and it just may be that one of them makes quite a lot of sense.

Time will tell!

Cheers,
Adam.
 

agustin_arg

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Jul 21, 2014
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SAMUEL:

When you base it is safe to say that the rockets were certainly deste launched the titanic?

I'll explain because I like you:

It is 99.9% sure that the 8 rockets seen by the californian were from the titanic.

I seem to have read some see the captain lord to say that rockets could come from the alleged third ghost ship (which was not the titanic for him). It's almost impossible to think that, because in the event of a third boat existed, would have to be in between the titanic and californian. and in the event that the third ship throw rockets (apart from no reason) would have to have seen the rockets from the Titanic, and since there was not anything. Besides the rockets were coming from the direction it was the titanic, and knowing that the titanic and californian were close, and the rockets are up to a certain maximum distance, there is no doubt that the rockets they saw were those who were dropped from the titanic.

Also I think gibson stone and stated that the rockets seemed to be thrown behind the mysterious ship, meaning that the rockets were coming but they saw the boat behind. So as I said recently and all, by the direction of the boat, there is no doubt that the rockets were coming from titanic.

thanks for all of Argentina. the truth that no luck in the final. we lost four very clear goals. as in all areas of life is fundamental luck (weather the night of the sinking of the ship would have been different, or californian evans slept later might have been another story not). btw, nice selection of united states, here it is said that in the not too distant future they will be a football power.


MICHAEL:

My only thing I can think of is some new evidence of any descendant of any member of the californian. but if you declare in favor of the theory of Lord is going to rule for his family ties. and declares against is difficult because there would be declared against a family member (unless some family member of the crew). but it is almost impossible.

Another thing that occurs to me is the appearance of any document, but if not so many years ago I appeared nothing real problem that may appear something now.


ADAM:

Thanks for the welcome. as I said in Spanish language in general there is not much information on the ship as there is in English, there is very little of californian. so for me to have discovered this product is like gold.

Just like you I think about the kind of evidence that might appear (witnesses and documents). but it is almost impossible. most of the evidence consists of testimony of the stars of that night. There is little evidence that I conosca than the direct testimony of the events.

a documentary recently came out in the U.S., which talks about the current Labrador: how climate may have influenced the vision of the members of the boat. when members of the californian and titanic, seemed to see a small boat when they were actually watching a large ship, the effects of weather and mirages. but this theory that changes history? by more than californian members thought they saw a small boat, if they saw the rockets would have to have paid help, or perhaps to provide aid must only be a big boat? and if the vessel was a kid no matter calling for help he manages total was only a small boat that matter if it sinks.




titanic:

I could report some related book about californian, as I said in Spanish there is very little about it. where can I download? and if you can translate? thank you


Another thing that intrigues me and let me know your opinion is:

you think that since there was negligence that californian night and knew how to interpret the meaning of the rockets? very great negligence, because a minimum would have woken Habre evans the telegraph to see the steps.

or have thought about the possibility that they understood everything perfectly and knew that the ship was in no danger and were assisted consciously? that would be based to think this?

negligence or malice?



Greetings!
 

Jim Currie

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Buenos noches Augustine! Tengo mucho gusto en conocerie.

I note your interest in the SS Californian. I too am very interested in that subject and have written about it. Unfortunately, not in Spanish.

My conviction is that all the evidence is already available to work out what happened on Californian that night. Too many people have start from the end rather than the beginning so that their thoughts are distorted by the opinions of others but more specially, the findings of the American and British Inquiries back in 1912.
In these pages of Encyclopedia -Titanica, you will find much to make you think. My advice to you is to approach the problem with an open mind.

Bienvenida!

Jim C.
 
Dec 2, 2000
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>>My only thing I can think of is some new evidence of any descendant of any member of the californian.<<

Unless it's first hand documentation and verifiably authentic as such, I'm afraid any such would be worse then useless. Decendants at best are second hand and often tertiary in nature and notoriously unreliable.
 

agustin_arg

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Jul 21, 2014
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Buenos noches Augustine! Tengo mucho gusto en conocerie.

I note your interest in the SS Californian. I too am very interested in that subject and have written about it. Unfortunately, not in Spanish.

My conviction is that all the evidence is already available to work out what happened on Californian that night. Too many people have start from the end rather than the beginning so that their thoughts are distorted by the opinions of others but more specially, the findings of the American and British Inquiries back in 1912.
In these pages of Encyclopedia -Titanica, you will find much to make you think. My advice to you is to approach the problem with an open mind.

Bienvenida!

Jim C.

gim goodnight.

Might you pass me the address (if you are on the internet) of the things you wrote about it. do I look like to translate. thank you very much

sometimes I can not understand the meaning of the messages, it becomes difficult for the translator. what you recommend me is that you do not pay much attention to the results of investigations of united states and great britain. and open-minded? would not take a definitive position, you see the gray (not everything is black and white).




>>My only thing I can think of is some new evidence of any descendant of any member of the californian.<<

Unless it's first hand documentation and verifiably authentic as such, I'm afraid any such would be worse then useless. Decendants at best are second hand and often tertiary in nature and notoriously unreliable.
is difficult to consider getting authentic documentary when many years have passed. it seems impossible.

watching the documentary theme, the other day I was reading that the day of the catastrophe in the book disappeared californian (not as it is called in the navy, where everything was to be scored on guard each of the officers or something). members that obliterated californian that document? it was obvious that something had not benefited ..... that could contain that important document? distance aspect of the boat they saw? be sure, but there was something that harmed.

item of evidence: from what I've read most of the officers and the captain lord did not speak with anyone that subject, were stored inside what happened that night. only be possible a descendant of some non-direct a witness (not a relative of an officer or captain). well and everything is impossible, witnesses should be older, but spoke all these years because it would have to do now?
 

agustin_arg

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Jul 21, 2014
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I don't understand your question. It seems disjointed and confused.
is not incoherent or confused the language translator not faithfully reproduces what I mean. I'll be more clear:

after year is difficult for aparesca new documents.

if night disappeared accident record book californian, it seems impossible that any new document aparesca.

and I would like to know about the log book of the ship. because I disappeared? things that were written down in that book that was useful for research
 
Dec 2, 2000
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A lot of people would like to see that log. As far as is known, it no longer exists. The Californian was torpedoed and sunk during the First World War so any portion of the formal log still aboard would have gone down with the ship. The scrap log...which would have contained any notation of what they saw...never made it to Boston.
 

agustin_arg

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Jul 21, 2014
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A lot of people would like to see that log. As far as is known, it no longer exists. The Californian was torpedoed and sunk during the First World War so any portion of the formal log still aboard would have gone down with the ship. The scrap log...which would have contained any notation of what they saw...never made it to Boston.
the record never came to boston.

obligation was carrying vessels that record? because if it is required and the record disappears, is a crime.

explanation given to members inventigaciones californian in the united states and great britain on the disappearance of the records? some expliacacion must have given.

you say that the record contains records of what they saw. sure what was recorded including the harmed so got rid of the registry.
 

Adam Went

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Hi Agustin,

Regarding the log book, on the Titanic at least, I seem to recall that there have been efforts since the wreck has been discovered to locate the log book in the area of the bridge. Unfortunately, the bridge section of the ship is quite badly decayed and full of debris, so even if the log book survives there somewhere it would be virtually impossible to find and retrieve it.

There was some talk among the survivors that the lights they spotted might have been stars, or some sort of reflection, but others like Fourth Officer Boxhall remained convinced that it was another boat, and I tend to agree.

"Titanic Voices" by Hannah Holman is a really useful resource if you want to read just survivor testimony, without some theory or idea being spun into it. I'm not sure if there's a translation available but it's well worth looking out for.

Cheers,
Adam.
 

Doug Criner

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New evidence to reach the real truth? In past years, it's just been about debating over and over all the old things and facts.
Entertaining or amusing, perhaps, but all rather useless. Best to read what is available, arrive at your own conclusions, and not engage in endless debates.

This all happened over 100 years ago. Current relevance is basically zilch. Even if the most preposterous theories, much less the more likely ones, were proved, what difference would it make? Maybe historical accuracy? How many people, much less historians, would care?
 
Dec 4, 2000
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Doug --

You are right that in today's "the truth is what I want it to be" culture not many people care about correcting the historical record of a relatively unimportant event like the sinking of Titanic. I have visited exhibitions staged at prestigious museums that contain egregious errors in fact and been told it didn't matter because the exhibit was bringing money through the door. We've seen documentaries in which facts have been twisted to promote one point of view or another for the same purpose. Even so, the quest for truth is never a waste of time. Very few of us are destined to have our names immortalized in history books, but every one of us is just as valuable as a human being as any other. Astor was rich, but did that make his soul any more valuable than a third class child? Not "no," but "hell no." The importance in getting the record straight is to honor the lives of those otherwise forgotten living human beings who now sail forever in Titanic. They deserve a better fate than being lost in the myths of time.

-- David G. Brown
 
Mar 22, 2003
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>>Best to read what is available, arrive at your own conclusions, and not engage in endless debates.<<

The debates may be endless, but an interesting thing to be engaged in for those that do care about history or a particular subject. Sometimes, through a debate, a new viewpoint may be offered which can change the way someone had been looking at things, or open up a different area of research which can throw new light on an old subject.

Augustin, the question of what happened to the scrap log of Californian did come up at the British inquiry. Here is the important part of what happened to it:

*****
8661. Do you mean that at the end of the day when you have written up your log from the scrap logbook, you tear out the page of the scrap logbook and destroy it?

[Chief Officer Stewart] Yes.

8662. (The Commissioner.) Day by day?

[Chief Officer Stewart] Yes.

8663. (The Solicitor-General.) Are you quite sure of that?

[Chief Officer Stewart] Yes.

8672. (The Solicitor-General.) Why do you do that?

[Chief Officer Stewart] Because we only keep the one log.

8673. But why?

[Chief Officer Stewart] By the company’s instructions...That the scrap log was to be put on a slate and rubbed off every day, or else in a book in which the page can be destroyed.

Mr. Laing: I can tell your Lordship what the practice is. The practice, so far as the White Star vessels are concerned is that the scrap logs are not to be kept. They are torn off a block or pad day by day. What is called the chief officer’s log is kept and handed in as soon as completed, to the owners; but the scrap logs are not kept.
*****

The official logbook of Californian was kept, and this is what was said about it:

****
8692. Now I have here the log which you [the Chief Officer] wrote up - the 13th April, the 14th of April on the next page, and the 15th. The page runs from midnight to midnight, and then the noon observations are in the middle across the page?

[Chief Officer Stewart] Yes, just the same as that.

8721. Now, I should like to follow this. As far as your memory serves you, did you enter into that logbook everything that you found on the scrap log sheet?

[Chief Officer Stewart] Yes.

8722. You observe there is nothing at all in your logbook about seeing distress signals?

[Chief Officer Stewart] Yes.

8723. Is there anything?

[Chief Officer Stewart] No, nothing.

8724. Nothing at all?

[Chief Officer Stewart] No.

8725. No reference to any of these events of the night at all?

[Chief Officer Stewart] No.
*****

And finally:

*****
8753. (The Solicitor-General.) This piece of paper, whatever it was in the scrap logbook for 15th April, would be used until midnight on the 15th, would not it?

[Chief Officer Stewart] Yes.

8754. Then would you write the entries into the logbook from the scrap logbook?

[Chief Officer Stewart] Yes.

8755. And do you say you then destroyed the record for April 15th?

[Chief Officer Stewart] Yes.

8756. When you destroyed it did you notice then there was no record on it about these distress signals, did not you notice that?

[Chief Officer Stewart] No, I just copied it off as it was.
*****

Stewart was told about the rockets when he came on duty at 4 AM, but he did not know why nothing was put in the scrap log. The entries in the scrap log would have been made by Second Officer Stone who was on watch from midnight to 4 AM. Apparently, he did not record any of the events seen during his watch. Third Officer Groves was also questioned about the scrap log, and he said that he did not see any mention of rockets in the scrap log.
 

agustin_arg

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SAMUEL

to see if I understood well:

Daytime official written record that is related to the trip, when the day ends pull the sheet?

that the point of this. then say they are the company instructions

not understand. then start to write something and throw the blade. sounds like a waste of time.

it might have been the instructions of the company? or torn sheets because they had something incriminating in the registry and not qeria it known.
 

agustin_arg

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Hi Agustin,

Regarding the log book, on the Titanic at least, I seem to recall that there have been efforts since the wreck has been discovered to locate the log book in the area of the bridge. Unfortunately, the bridge section of the ship is quite badly decayed and full of debris, so even if the log book survives there somewhere it would be virtually impossible to find and retrieve it.

There was some talk among the survivors that the lights they spotted might have been stars, or some sort of reflection, but others like Fourth Officer Boxhall remained convinced that it was another boat, and I tend to agree.

"Titanic Voices" by Hannah Holman is a really useful resource if you want to read just survivor testimony, without some theory or idea being spun into it. I'm not sure if there's a translation available but it's well worth looking out for.

Cheers,
Adam.
Suppose they find the titanic logbook. test would bring the issue californian? none, not change anything.

maybe in this book can be useful things that have to do with the titanic, but the californian should not say anything. rare serious when the titanic is sinking this write down in the book see the light of a nearby boat (apart for that testimony and said, botxall among others).

Boxhall a witness said he saw think the red or green light (bow or stern). I do not remember which of the two he said. but if the stars are white, then it is impossible that the light I saw has been a star.
 

Adam Went

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Hi all,

Doug:

There may not be any "new" evidence to come up in terms of the ship but there are still things to be learned - biographical information and so forth. A research must have some 'holy grail' to search for, something to spur them on, or else why are we all still here, posting on the forum? It's like hitting a hole in one on the golf course - the day I do that is the day I throw my clubs away, because there's nothing more to achieve after that. Haha! (Fortunately, I strongly doubt i'll be throwing them away any time soon....)

Agustin:

I would question what the entries in the logbook would be after the ship struck the iceberg, if there are any at all. I'd imagine the entire crew was more busy trying to evaluate the damage and evacuate the ship. You never know, though. The logbook is just one of those things that would be very interesting to read, especially in the hours leading up to the collision with the iceberg and the fact that the top three officers on the ship all perished.

The ocean was exceptionally calm when the Titanic was sinking and there was a huge amount of stars, all witnesses agree on that much. The thought with the lights on the other ship over the years has been that it might have been no more than a reflection of some sort. I find it hard to believe as well but experienced mariners have described such things. That there were other ships in the area, however, namely Californian and possibly a mystery ship, cannot be disputed.

Cheers,
Adam.
 

Jim Currie

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Hello agustin. I wrote 2 books in English, Both are published in ebook form on Amazon. The first is a novel named "The Scapegoat" based on the evidence of Captain Lord and the second is named The Scapegoat 2" and deals with how I interpret the evidence given at both the US and UK Inquiries.

Jim C.
 

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