William Carter's Mistress

Arun Vajpey said:
I have not seen any mention in any other publication of William Carter having a mistress on board the Titanic. AFAIK, the only well known passenger with a mistress on board was Benjamin Guggenheim, with his Leontine Aubart. Mme Aubart was rescued on Lifeboat #9 with her maid but I am not sure if Guggenheim ushered her to it. It might be another case of Pellegrino getting things mixed-up.

William and Lucile Carter were among the invitees of the dinner party that the Wideners gave to Captain Smith on the night of the disaster. Other than those two, Mrs Widener and Mrs Thayer survived from that party. AFAIK, no untoward incidents were mentioned by either of those two women, but I suppose that is expected in that class of people, especially under those circumstances.

The general opinion is that Lucile Carter took umbrage to the fact that her husband had arrived on board the Carpathia earlier than she could and when they met, made a careless (and perhaps tasteless) remark about having just had a good breakfast. May seem trivial to some but apparently their marriag. Lucile accused William Carter o
Arun Vajpey said:
I have not seen any mention in any other publication of William Carter having a mistress on board the Titanic. AFAIK, the only well known passenger with a mistress on board was Benjamin Guggenheim, with his Leontine Aubart. Mme Aubart was rescued on Lifeboat #9 with her maid but I am not sure if Guggenheim ushered her to it. It might be another case of Pellegrino getting things mixed-up.

William and Lucile Carter were among the invitees of the dinner party that the Wideners gave to Captain Smith on the night of the disaster. Other than those two, Mrs Widener and Mrs Thayer survived from that party. AFAIK, no untoward incidents were mentioned by either of those two women, but I suppose that is expected in that class of people, especially under those circumstances.

The general opinion is that Lucile Carter took umbrage to the fact that her husband had arrived on board the Carpathia earlier than she could and when they met, made a careless (and perhaps tasteless) remark about having just had a good breakfast. May seem trivial to some but apparently their marriage went downhill from that point. Lucile accused William Carter of deserting her and the children on board the Titanic, although I cannot see how he could have done that. It was not Bill Carter's fault that launch of Lifeboat #4 was delayed and in any case, Collapsible C, on which he was rescued, was lowered some 8 minutes after #4.

Lucile also accused her husband of marital violence, including horsewhipping her. Also, Carter being clubbed with Ismay in the post-disaster finger-pointing and vilification might not have helped. But AFAIK, there was no mistress involved.

What I did find interesting was the derogatory comments that Lucile is supposed to have made about her husband in public during the time leading up to their divorce. Oddly, Lucile remarried just 3 months later to George Brooke and so one has to wonder which one of the former Carter couple was entitled to accuse the spouse of misdemeanour. William Carter never remarried.
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f dee went downhill from that pointserting her and the children on board the Titanic, although I cannot see how he could have done that. It was not Bill Carter's fault that launch of Lifeboat #4 was delayed and in any case, Collapsible C, on which he was rescued, was lowered some 8 minutes after #4.

Lucile also accused her husband of marital violence, including horsewhipping her. Also, Carter being clubbed with Ismay in the post-disaster finger-pointing and vilification might not have helped. But AFAIK, there was no mistress involved.

What I did find interesting was the derogatory comments that Lucile is supposed to have made about her husband in public during the time leading up to their divorce. Oddly, Lucile remarried just 3 months later to George Brooke and so one has to wonder which one of the former Carter couple was entitled to accuse the spouse of misdemeanour. William Carter never remarried.
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In another thread about Titanic tall tales I posted about a tale where someone was accused of telling his wife that everything was ok, go back to sleep and then got in a boat and abandoned her. I'm wondering if that tall tale grew from her story.
 
George Jacub said:
Society men travelling with their mistresses wasn't unusual
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That is very likely true.
George Jacub said:
If there was a mistress, the most likely suspect would be Miss Augusta Jeanne Serreplaà, Mrs. Carter's maid.
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But is there any evidence to support this? I have seen no gossip column clipping of a possible affair between them. Lucile Carter was no fool and even if he was so inclined, Bill Carter would know that any dalliance with the maid would have serious repercussions. Furthermore, just because Augusta Serreplaa was young and French, it did not follow that she was attractive or amorously inclined.

After the Titanic disaster and in the time leading up to their divorce, Lucile Carter lost no opportunity to deride William, like calling him a "wet dishrag of a husband" in public. If there had been an affair with the maid, I am sure that Lucile would not have hesitated in making that public, probably after she got married again.
 
What gossip column clippings have you read linking Benjamin Guggenheim with Leontine Aubart? Was Mrs. Guggenheim a fool?

Just for fun read up on Lucille Polk's scandalous reputation before she married Mr. Carter.
 
George Jacub said:
What gossip column clippings have you read linking Benjamin Guggenheim with Leontine Aubart?
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I have read - like I am sure you have - in several Titanic publications about Guggenheim and Aubart. I don't think it was that much of a secret.
George Jacub said:
Just for fun read up on Lucille Polk's scandalous reputation before she married Mr. Carter.
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I can very well believe it. In fact, in my earlier post I have commented on her very early post-divorce second marriage and insinuated that it might have been Bill Carter who had reason to point out his spouse's misdemeanours rather than the other way round. I would not be surprised if it was she who instigated that "notorious playboy" report.
 
George Jacub said:
Society men travelling with their mistresses wasn't unusual. Quigg Baxter, first class passenger from Montreal, had his paramour on the Titanic.
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Yes, and there were other 'couples' on board like that.

Henry Morley and his 19-year-old mistress Kate Phillips (travelling as Mr and Mrs Marshall)

George Rosenshine and Maybelle Thorne. He called himself George Thorne to avert any raised eyebrows.
Interestingly, this couple were among the diners in the a la carte restaurant on the night of the disaster. Although they were not invitees to the Wideners' party to the Captain (some sources claim that they were), their table appears to have been closest to the other group. Maybelle Thorne was one of those who commented on the gay atmosphere at the Wideners' party and also noted that it was almost 10 pm by the time Captain Smith left the table. That was more or less independently corroborated by Daisy Minahan, which made me wonder if (unbeknown to Lightoller) Captain Smith returned to the party table after his 08:55 pm trip to the bridge.

Such 'unofficial' dalliances were not limited to First Class. Dennis Lennon and Mary Mullin were travelling as Mr and Mrs Lennon in Third Class; sadly, both perished in the sinking.
 
Sounds like a different ship to me...:cool:
the-love-boat.jpg
 
I was aware of the famous one and the Navratil story. Although he didn't have a mistress onboard he was using Titanic to escape a situation that involved mistresses and or lovers. But I wasn't aware of all the others mentioned in this thread. A hotbed of activity on a cold night...doh!
 
Getting back to William Carter and his alleged 'mistress' on board, I do not believe that there was any. While he was probably not a paragon of virtues, I think Lucile's accusations about horsewhipping etc were likely exaggerated. I suspect that Carter's nonchalant attitude towards her on board the Carpathia might actually have been a deliberate attempt on his part to rankle her and increase the distance between them. In the aftermath of the disaster, Lucile is supposed to have said things like "I would rather leave than have a wet dishrag for a husband". All that makes me wonder - when the divorce did eventually come about, who was getting rid of who?
 
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Thank goodness for Arun, the voice of common sense :)

Steven Christian said:
I was aware of the famous one and the Navratil story. Although he didn't have a mistress onboard he was using Titanic to escape a situation that involved mistresses and or lovers. But I wasn't aware of all the others mentioned in this thread. A hotbed of activity on a cold night...doh!
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The Navratil case is quite a disturbing one really.

A cold, calculating man who kidnapped his sons and went so far as to buy a revolver and ammunition in case he got cornered.

I hate to say this but I fear that the Michel Navratil was in interviews completely in denial about what a nasty piece of work his father clearly was.
 
Seumas said:
I hate to say this but I fear that the Michel Navratil was in interviews completely in denial about what a nasty piece of work his father clearly was.
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IMO,
I mean, he was three years old when he departed, and even if he knew what was going on later in his life, he loved his Father, he had good memories with him. He only knew Mommy and Daddy, So he never got to see the side the gossip columns were saying.

Although probably just pure conjecture :)
 
Cam Houseman said:
IMO,
I mean, he was three years old when he departed, and even if he knew what was going on later in his life, he loved his Father, he had good memories with him. He only knew Mommy and Daddy, So he never got to see the side the gossip columns were saying.

Although probably just pure conjecture :)
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It's unlikely he had any memories beyond fleeting images and sounds at the age of three.

The story that Michael Navratil Jnr liked to recount late in life about the last time he saw his father Michel Navratil Snr is simply impossible to believe.

Firstly, it is simply ridiculous that a three year old child could remember word for word such a long, flowery speech as that which he claimed his father gave to the boys.

Secondly, there is no way that two "by-the-book" officers like Wilde and Lightoller would have been happy with a man using up valuable time for a melodramatic goodbye when the water is was getting closer and closer to A-Deck and the ship only has minutes left.

The ugly truth of the matter is Navratil Jnr was firmly in denial about as I said before, what a nasty piece of work his father was.

The kidnapping was not a spur of the moment thing either. Navratil Snr actually planned all this weeks in advance. He knew what he was doing alright.
  • He purchased new children's clothes, shoes, toys and luggage
  • He also purchased a revolver and ammunition.
  • Carefully zigzagged across France and Southern England to lead investigators a dance.
  • Bought steamship tickets to start a new life in a new continent.
This is not the behaviour of some hopeless, romantic fool like Navratil Jnr convinced himself his father was. It was the behaviour of a cold, calculating and possibly dangerous criminal.
 
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