William Carter's Mistress

[Arun Vajpey]

The Navratil case is quite a disturbing one really.

A cold, calculating man who kidnapped his sons and went so far as to buy a revolver and ammunition in case he got cornered.

I hate to say this but I fear that the Michel Navratil was in interviews completely in denial about what a nasty piece of work his father clearly was.

Seumas, I respectfully disagree with you there. I have read about Michel Navratil saga a few times and while we cannot be certain, he does not come across like a nasty piece of work at all. Rather, he comes across as a loving father who wanted to keep his son's with him and bring them up in America. Given the limited information available, it is difficult to pass a judgement, even though the steps he took might be questionable.

Michel and his Italian wife Marcelle and separated by then and he accused her of having an affair. We don't know if that was true, but might have been. In any case, Michel resented the fat that Marcelle was given the custody of the children and so planned to kidnap them and take them to America for what he perceived as a better life. There is a suggestion that a friend helped him to carry out the plan.

So he assumed the identity of "Louis Hoffman" and took his sons with him on the Easter Break and boarded the Titanic soon afterwards. He had written to his mother and sister informing them of his plan and a back-up if things went wrong. As far as is known, he appeared to be a caring father on board the Titanic, as reported by survivor Bertha Lehmann, one of his table companions. She occasionally baby sat for them when Navratil took a break.

After the collision and when it became obvious that the Titanic was doomed, Navratil did NOT try to force himself into any lifeboat even though he had a gun. Rather, he handed the children over to Lightoller's crew as they loaded Collapsible D , gave Michel Jr, the older child, a rather poignant farewell message (please read the bio on ET) and stood back to go down with the ship. Those were not the actions of a coward or desperate man.

I don't mind telling you - I have commented about it several times here on ET - that if I had the power to save ONE single Titanic victim, it would have been Michel Navratil Sr. For reasons that I cannot explain, I wanted him to carry out his plan to go to America and bring the boys up there as Americans. As it was, Michel Jr and Edmund (Lolo) were recovered by their mother Marcelle and grew up as Frenchmen.

PS: If the mods feel that this and related post about Michel Navratil are inappropriate in a thread about William Carter's mistress, please move it to a Navratil thread. Thanks.

 

[Seumas]

Seumas, I respectfully disagree with you there. I have read about Michel Navratil saga a few times and while we cannot be certain, he does not come across like a nasty piece of work at all. Rather, he comes across as a loving father who wanted to keep his son's with him and bring them up in America. Given the limited information available, it is difficult to pass a judgement, even though the steps he took might be questionable.

Michel and his Italian wife Marcelle and separated by then and he accused her of having an affair. We don't know if that was true, but might have been. In any case, Michel resented the fat that Marcelle was given the custody of the children and so planned to kidnap them and take them to America for what he perceived as a better life. There is a suggestion that a friend helped him to carry out the plan.

So he assumed the identity of "Louis Hoffman" and took his sons with him on the Easter Break and boarded the Titanic soon afterwards. He had written to his mother and sister informing them of his plan and a back-up if things went wrong. As far as is known, he appeared to be a caring father on board the Titanic, as reported by survivor Bertha Lehmann, one of his table companions. She occasionally baby sat for them when Navratil took a break.

After the collision and when it became obvious that the Titanic was doomed, Navratil did NOT try to force himself into any lifeboat even though he had a gun. Rather, he handed the children over to Lightoller's crew as they loaded Collapsible D , gave Michel Jr, the older child, a rather poignant farewell message (please read the bio on ET) and stood back to go down with the ship. Those were not the actions of a coward or desperate man.

I don't mind telling you - I have commented about it several times here on ET - that if I had the power to save ONE single Titanic victim, it would have been Michel Navratil Sr. For reasons that I cannot explain, I wanted him to carry out his plan to go to America and bring the boys up there as Americans. As it was, Michel Jr and Edmund (Lolo) were recovered by their mother Marcelle and grew up as Frenchmen.

PS: If the mods feel that this and related post about Michel Navratil are inappropriate in a thread about William Carter's mistress, please move it to a Navratil thread. Thanks.

I'll put my cards on the table here Arun - I'm one of the most cold hearted, unsentimental so and so's you are ever likely to come across.

These kinds of romantic legends, if I may call them that, always set a klaxon off in my mind.

With the Titanic we have the staple romantic legends such as (i) Guggenheim's "dressed in our best..." farewell, (ii) Astor freeing the dogs from the kennel, (iii) the engineers all drowning in the engine room, (iv) Andrews staring intensely at the painting in the 1st class smoking room - all of which quickly fall apart when the sources (or indeed lack of sources) are subjected to scrutiny.

You'll remember a month or so ago I told you about how back in the eighties, Don Lynch and George Behe easily caught out Eva Hart lying to them about her experiences ? Child survivors testimony has to be taken with a big pinch of salt.

Navratil Jnr's story it has two huge holes in it. One with regard to common sense and the other is with regard to actual facts.

Firstly, the idea that a three year old could remember such a long, florid speech (it's hilariously overdone like something out of a terrible Victorian melodrama such as "East Lynne") like Navratil Snr claimed his father gave to them is just asking too much to believe. Suspiciously, we only have Navratil Jnr's word for this. That's not good enough.

Secondly, Wilde and Lightoller were not fools. They knew that there was no time to be lost getting Collapsible D away. They were cutting things fine as it was. The idea that they'd let some bloke just amble up and give a time consuming, self indulgent goodbye to his sleepy, infant sons as the water crept up to A-Deck and there was still two Collapsibles A & B to get away - again this is really just too much to believe.

As for Navratil not using his gun to force his way into he boats ? That's not surprising really when you consider that two imposing ship's officers loading the boat (Wilde and Lightoller) were both openly displaying their own weapons.

When someone plans in advance to kidnap his children from the rightful court appointed guardian and goes so far as to buy a firearm and ammunition - I feel a distinct lack of empathy for them be that in 1912 or 2021.

Given his actions, it was probably the best thing all round that Navratil Snr died that night.

Think about it. The boys didn't have to witness their father being arrested. They didn't have to spend years occasionally visiting him in prison or receiving pathetic letters form him or taunted at school as being the sons of a "jailbird". (See, I did say at the start of my post that I was cold hearted and unsentimental !)

Navratil Snr as a kind of Byronic hero of the Titanic ? Sorry, I can't ever in a million years buy that one.

 

[Arun Vajpey]

Well, OK we'll agree to disagree about Michel Navratil.

But do agree that a lot of sentimental things posted about the events on board the sinking Titanic were either exaggerated or products of imagination. For example, I don't and will never believe that the band were playing till the very end. That story started because a few witnesses mentioned the band playing and post-disaster reporters took it up and greatly embellished the information with choices of their own tunes. Years later, that was carried onto various books and movies about the Titanic and in due course became a legend.

But I don't want to deviate from the topic of this thread - William Carter's mistress.

 

[Steven Christian]

Getting back to William Carter and his alleged 'mistress' on board, I do not believe that there was any. While he was probably not a paragon of virtues, I think Lucile's accusations about horsewhipping etc were likely exaggerated. I suspect that Carter's nonchalant attitude towards her on board the Carpathia might actually have been a deliberate attempt on his part to rankle her and increase the distance between them. In the aftermath of the disaster, Lucile is supposed to have said things like "I would rather leave than have a wet dishrag for a husband". All that makes me wonder - when the divorce did eventually come about, who was getting rid of who?

Yes. She doesn't sound like the type that would have stood for a horse whipping. She probably made those claims because in those days it was probably just considered a private matter (not illegal) if you beat your wife with a mop handle if she messed up your sandwich.

 

[Arun Vajpey]

She doesn't sound like the type that would have stood for a horse whipping.

She does not sound like the type who would have withstood beating with a mop handle either. On the other hand, if William carter had accused her of using the mop handle on him, I would have considered it rather more favourably.

To be honest, I feel that there were a lot of scenes enacted by the Carter couple who were drifting apart even before the Titanic disaster. I feel that Bill Carter had had enough and used the disaster to his advantage; that might sound cruel, but it is not meant to be. He was in no way responsible for what happened but having come through himself, decided that the time was ripe. That 'breakfast' quip that she accused him of, almost certainly truthfully, sounds like a carefully planned attack to increase her animosity towards him. As I said before, I know that William Carter was not a paragon of virtues (few of us are) but more I read about them, my sympathies are with him and not her.

It says on ET that the terms of their divorce in 1914 were initially impounded and released only a year later, in which she accused him of domestic violence etc. Makes one wonder, doesn't it?