William E Carter II

[Ben Holme]

Hi Mike,

Thankyou so much for the helpful information regarding the Carter "factions". Your information has finally established the actaul *reasons* for the split. Until now, I had been somewhat hazy over the "why" factor. Thankyou for clearing that one up! I never did buy Lucile's version of her husband's departure from the Titanic. All this seems to indicate that she was a rather highly-strung woman.

Phil - Enjoyed reading your post re. the Brooke family connection. All fairly new to me, that!

Still undecided as to which lifeboat (4 or C) left the ship first...

Best Regards,
Ben

 

[Philip Hind]

George meet Mike, Mike meet Phil, meet Mike P. meet George meet Randy meet Ben meet Mike meet Phil meet George...

I think you are all doing great!

 

[Pat Cook]

Hows come you always call these meetings and nobody tells me?

 

[Geoff Whitfield]

Yeh! Me too. We have to face it Cook, we are just a pair of old has beens nobody wants to know!

 

[Phillip Gowan]

Pat and Geoff--you won't say that after you see all the awards and praise that are going to be lavished on you in Soton next April. Eye hath not seen nor ear heard---.

PG

 

[Philip Hind]

Talking to the wall again Phil? It's the first sign of madness.

 

[Phillip Gowan]

Actually, sometimes its the most intelligent conversation I have all day-

PG

 

[Geoff Whitfield]

Speaking of Soton - we need to get Behe over there
for the Convention. Just imagine all the fun we could have (at his expense!)

 

[Phillip Gowan]

You know Geoff, this year is shaping up to be quite a gathering and I agree we'll have to put the squeeze on George to join us. I think Patti and I are coming a little earlier than usual and this year maybe we can have our "out in the country banquet" a night or two early and even get a bit of a bigger crowd together. Hichens' granddaughter is having several of us to her home for dinner one night (including Muffet Brown) and that will be almost an historic evening--imagine what Molly and the Quartermaster would think to know that during the week of the 90th anniversary their descendants would sit down for a homecooked meal in the "Hichens" home in Southampton--the first such meeting of the families since the lifeboat! I think Dinah Dowding is planning to attend as well and it will be great to meet her at long last. I've also been trying to talk Kalman Tanito into coming from Budapest and have hopes that he'll do so. Then with Cook, Molony, and the rest of the usual crowd--I think Bonnie Nadzeika is saving her pennies to come too--we'll have quite a time. Bonnie, you may know, is quite famous for rolling in the floor during Titanic gatherings.

I wish it was tomorrow!

PG

 

[George Behe]

Hi, Geoff and Phil!

There's nothing I'd enjoy more -- it would be great fun to sit down with you guys and spend a few days exchanging thoughts and information. (Phil, you could even act as referee when Geoff and I start hurling insults back and forth at each other.)

Even if I don't get to attend the convention in person, though, I'll still be there 'in spirit.' (If you should notice a 'haunted' expression on the faces of one or two of the attendees, you'll know I'm there.)

Take care, guys.

All my best,

George

 

[Michael Findlay]

Hi Ben,

Thanks for the kind words. There is debate over the departure times of the lifeboats. Nobody will ever agree so it is pointless to engage in a discussion as it relates to William Carter.

One thing is for sure though - regardless of whether Carter left the Titanic before his family (given a few minutes or so!), Mrs. Carter believed that he did. He certainly reached the Carpathia before the rest of the family! and that fact is really what made Mrs. Carter see red. I have to laugh when I read the remark Carter allegedly said to his wife when she was lifted aboard. "I had a jolly good breakfast but I never thought you'd make it!" Of course, this comes from Mrs. Carter so we don't know for sure it was really true.

Hey Mike P. - Thanks also for your kind words. Where you been these past few months?

Phil H. - Thank you

Cheers!

Mike

 

[George Behe]

Hi, Ben!

> Still undecided as to which lifeboat (4 or C) left the ship first...

Here's the evidence upon which I base my opinion that boat #4 left first:

Lightoller testified that he launched boat #4 (containing Mrs. Carter) from A deck before returning to the boat deck to start working on Collapsible D. Hugh Woolner testified that, after watching Collapsible D being connected to the davits, he went to the starboard boat deck just in time to see shots fired by the officer who was loading Collapsible C with passengers. In other words, it appears that boat #4 was already in the water while Collapsible C (in which Mr. Carter was saved) was still hanging in the davits.

This launch sequence was first published in 1991 in my pamphlet "Titanic Tidbits #1," and author Paul Quinn recently arrived (indendently) at that same conclusion in his book, "Titanic at Two a.m." (Although the *exact times* of these launchings can never be known with absolute precision, IMO the *sequence* in which the two boats were launched is as related above; I'd be interested to hear your own thoughts, though.)

Take care, old chap.

All my best,

George

 

[Ben Holme]

Hi George,

Interesting stuff! Woolner's account undoubtedly suggests that collapsible D couldn't have been lowered long after C at all - bearing in mind that the rush/gunshots etc occurred relatively early in the launching of C (i.e. Murdoch or McElroy, using pistols, deterred most of the steerage passengers from entering the boat before sending them aft and then allowing Ismay and Carter in). It was just before col. D was swung out, that the trouble on the starboard side occurred. It then becomes unclear as to which lifeboat he is referring to.

After helping Murdoch etc with the "offenders" at boat C, he says "Then that boat was finally filled up and swung out". However, when he descended to A deck he makes no mention of crossing the forward facing promenade to the port side.

Although Woolner apparently did not witness either boat being lowered, it is perhaps significant that he observed that "they eventually lowered *all* the wooden lifeboats on the port side".

Although the lowering of boat #4 was delayed for various reasons, the very short space of time, as described by Woolner, between the lowering of boats C and D would seem to bolster the "#4 before C" theory.

Col Gracie was someone else who visited both port and starboard in those last boat-loading moments. From his account, it can be deduced that a substantial amount of time passed between 4 and D. It wasn't until after boat #4 was in the water, that boat D was even lifted into position (with some difficulty, it appears). When Gracie crossed to the starboard, C was gone. As boat #C, according to Woolner, was still being loaded at this time, one can only conclude that #4 left first.

And there was me thinking that the aft port boats were the problematic ones!

Nice to see you here again

Best Regards,
Ben

P.S Sorry, back to Carter....

 

[Mike Herbold]

Michael Findlay wrote:

"Interestingly, Behr and Williams played one another in Morristown, New Jersey, in the summer of 1915."

Michael, the sports fan in me wants to know who won.

 

[George Behe]

Hi, Ben!

I agree with everything you said.

(And thanks for the welcome back -- much appreciated.)

All my best,

George

 

[George Behe]

Mike Herbold! Nice to see you again, old chap! Any word on how long it will be before you settle down and grow roots again?

Take care, old chap, and keep in touch.

All my best,

George

 

[Mike Herbold]

Thanks, George.
Just another quick visit before hitting the road again. Played golf yesterday (that's the Titanic connection to this note, BTW. I sank) so only one day for ET this weekend. It's sure great to see your name here again, my friend.

 

[Michael Findlay]

Hi Mike,

Well, Williams won the 1915 match, and the two played each other in Philadelphia as well. Williams always won.

It's truly amazing when you figure that Williams spent many hours in the freezing water that night. Aboard the Carpathia, his legs were so frostbitten that doctors recommended amputation. Williams defiantly replied, "Absolutely not. I'm going to need these legs." Sure enough, he proved the medical examiners wrong. He walked the Carpathia's decks faithfully and continued his rehabilition after he arrived in Philadelphia. He went on to become one of the best tennis players in the world and almost beat Bill Tilden (the 1920's world tennis champion) in a match in 1923. Williams came up against him in the finals - best three out of five sets. It was one of Williams' days. He won the first and second set but then the magic began to drain out of Williams' racket, the balls started going out by an inch or two, and Tilden won the last three sets and the match. Tilden later said, "No man in history ever played tennis like Dick Williams played tennis in those two sets."

I, too, am a sports fan and if you would like to hear more about Williams' tennis career, I highly recommend "Big Bill Tilden" by Frank Deford (from Sports Illustrated), Simon and Schuster, 1975. Deford and I participated in Sports Illustrated interview back in 1998 with Mrs. R. Norris Williams in which the former tennis star's life, and Titanic experiences, were featured.

Hope this helps....sorry if I went overboard!

Best regards, Mike.

Mike

 

[Michael Findlay]

George,

Thanks for the evidence regarding collapsible C and boat #4. My opinions don't really matter but my point was only to reiterate what Mrs. Carter claimed at the time of her divorce. Regardless of whether Carter left before or after, Mrs. Carter always claimed it was before, and she may have thought that for a number of reasons which cannot be determined. William T. Carter, their son, also believed that his father left earlier. As you mentioned, "Although the exact times will never been known with any absolute precision....", it is still too close to call for say for sure if Mrs. Carter was right or wrong in her claim. It's probable that she was incorrect, given your evidence, but there's always that chance...just look at the confusion regarding the departure of boats 6 and 8 in terms of which left first - conflicting arguments on both sides.

Thanks for your efforts.

Mike

 

[Mike Herbold]

Michael:
Saw your note and immediately switched over to my favorite bookseller, abeBooks, and bought a copy of Deford's Tilden book. My dad, who was a hot California player in the late 30's, and who still plays a mean game at 84, will love it also. Thanks for going overboard.

Here's an interesting webpage for you:
http://www.tennisfame.org/enshrinees_atoz.html
Then scroll down to Norris Williams and click.