Women in all three clases


Kevin Perez

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1) I know this seems very typical of me, but can any of you give me all the number of women who died on the Titanic from all classes, including the crew.

2) On a scale of 1-10, what were the chances of women surviving the Titanic disaster from 1st, 2nd, 3rd classes?

3) Although 105 (well 108 counting crew) isn't a lot, the death toll for 3rd class women was pretty much higher then that of 1st and 2nd class. Why is this?

4) Only 4 out 143 women died on the sinking. They were in 1st class, were women, and had easy access to lifeboats, what could've prevent them from going to one?

5) Why do men get more attention then the women on Titanic! I do knot mean to sound rude, hearing stories about Molly Brown, Countess of Roths, and etc.... I find them equally amazing to the men of the ship!
 
Jul 20, 2000
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Kevin,

The answer to 1] is in my paper on this web-site. The only adjustment is that I have since been advised that Mathilde Lefebvre was 12 and therefore an adult not a child.

1st Class 4 women, 2nd Class 12, 3rd Class 89, Crew 3.
 
Mar 20, 2000
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Kevin:

I wouldn’t venture to guess the answer for No. 2 but for the others, here’s my two cents’ worth:

3) Steerage passengers simply did not have direct access to the boat deck. There were often language barriers and (to some extent) physical barriers preventing the 3rd class from making it to the lifeboats.

4) More women died than that. But of the first class women, Ida Straus refused to go into a boat, as did Bess Allison. So they made a conscious decision to remain (the latter also made the decision for her daughter). Of the others, Edith Evans and Ann Isham, there remains some question as to what happened to them. Evans had an opportunity to go in the last boat but somehow didn’t get in; I suspect she could not navigate the rail or was afraid to do so, and was, unfortunately, not noticed in the dark by men who might have helped her. Isham wasn’t seen on deck by any surviving witness. She was actually not seen by anyone at all on the voyage, at least not by anyone who lived and could recall her.

5 The men get more attention because so many of them lost their lives, and because, for the most part, writers and researchers in the field of Titanica are men. The comparatively few women researchers in this genre are likewise interested in male victims/survivors, and of these the focus is mainly upon officers/crew. I’m one of the few researchers, maybe the only one, who writes exclusively about female passengers/survivors, although even my interest is limited to a sociological focus on those who maintained successful professional careers. As to "Molly" Brown and Noelle Rothes, they’re only two of a large number of extremely dynamic and independent women on Titanic. Like Helen Churchill Candee, Brown and Rothes publicly embraced suffrage and other controversial political and social causes. By contrast, some prominent women aboard who made their own way, notably Lucy Duff Gordon, didn’t subscribe to feminist ideology, though one could argue they were feministic in their actions. In fact, most of the career women I’ve studied who were Titanic survivors —— Edith Russell, Rene Harris, Dorothy Gibson —— were not actively involved in the suffrage movement of the 1910s.
 

Kevin Perez

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Randy, my bad, I mean that out of the 143 1st class women only 4 died. I'm still somewhat against the men getting all of the attention, as I'm very interested in the women of Titanic.

BTW, about Evans and Allison, did they not go because she gave her seat up for another woman and because Bess was looking for her baby the entire night?
 

Bob Godfrey

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I'm puzzled by the suggestion that more interest has been shown in, and more research effort directed towards male rather than female passengers. Apart from Judith Geller's book which concentrates on the women and children, all other published sources which catalogue biographical details of some part or all of the passengers make no distinctions in terms of age or gender. And in this forum over the years I haven't noticed any shortage of inquiries about women and children, especially those who travelled in 3rd Class. It's inevitable of course that there will be a much greater volume of inquiries and information published about the male crew, as there were so few women serving aboard.

Kevin, you will find much detailed discussion about the issues that interest you in existing threads, and use of the search engine should yield a rich harvest. But you won't find any definitive evidence to explain why Mrs Allison and Miss Evans failed to board lifeboats. It's possible that Bess Allison could not be convinced that her son was safely away, but perhaps even more likely that she was reluctant to leave without her husband.

As for Miss Evans, even Colonel Gracie, who led her to boat D and Officer Lightoller, who was loading it, were at a loss to explain why she failed to board. The boat was lowered with empty spaces, so she certainly didn't need to give up a place to make room for others. And it was surrounded by a cordon of men who were calling out for more women right to the last, so there was no shortage of helping hands to get her aboard had she been willing. The fact that she was still on deck at such a late stage suggests that even then she might have felt safer on the Titanic than in a lifeboat. But we have no way of knowing for sure.
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Kevin Perez

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So that means Evans giving up her seat for Mrs. Brown was false! Sad, because that's what really gotten me interested into her (no offense to Miss Evans there)
 

Bob Godfrey

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I wouldn't say with certainty that the claim was false. Miss Evans' companion, Caroline Brown, seems to have believed it. At a time of confusion and in semi-darkness, both women might have had the impression that the boat was full. Or Miss Evans might have been trying hard to convince herself there was a good reason for staying in a place where, for whatever illogical reason, she felt safer. We cannot of course enter into the mind of another and know for sure what thoughts and motivations were hidden there.
 

Kevin Perez

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Well, besides her, I thought it was very brave for Miss Funk to give up her seat and accept the possiblity she was going to die. A very brave lady IMHO.
 
Mar 20, 2000
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I wasn’t implying there’s an intentional bias toward male passengers/crew at the expense of women. I was just stating that there was a greater natural interest in the men for the reasons I gave. (But Bob, your comments about the supposedly high interest in third class are puzzling, too —— I thought you were of the impression that steerage passengers were direly neglected by researchers)

Regarding Edith Evans and Boat D. It shouldn’t be stated absolutely that there were plenty of men around to help, or even that the ring of crew was constant or impenetrable. There are other accounts that suggest otherwise. There was simply too much activity in that area, it was too dark, and people’s emotions were running too high, for there to be a conclusive understanding of what was going on. All we have are conflicting eyewitness accounts and theories.

Edith Evans’ story is one of the more touching for readers, and since her very existence is enveloped in mystery, it has caught the imagination of researchers. Edith was an independently wealthy, well-traveled young woman, from a prestigious New York family, yet almost nothing else is known about her and only one photo of her is known to survive.
 
Jul 20, 2000
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Kevin,

Have you read Gracie. In case not here are pages 38-39.

<table border=1>[tr][td]
attachment_icon.gif
38-39
38-39.bmp (25.7 k)[/td][/tr][/table]​
 
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Bob Godfrey

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Randy, I didn't mean to suggest that here in the forum there has been an exceptionally high interest in 3rd Class, only that within that area of interest in particular there has been no obvious bias towards males. In the Passenger Research section (3rd Class) only about 1 in 3 of the existing threads are concerned specifically with male passengers; the rest are about women, children or whole families.
 

Brian Ahern

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It's never struck me that there was a bias towards men in public historical interest of the disaster. I suppose it could seem that way, since those responsible for the operation and evacuation of the ship would have been men. And perhaps biographical information on the men is easier to trace because they were overwhelmingly more likely to have had careers, degrees, employment records and the like. But, honestly, I would say women have been given a fair shake by researchers.

Regarding Mrs. Allison, since it's been brought up, one possibility that's become more striking to me is that - whatever their intentions regarding Mrs. Allison and Loraine going in a boat - the Allisons simply never made it to a lifeboat in time to make the decision. If the Lynch book is accurate, then the Allisons weren't roused until well after most other passengers. After Mr. A. had gone on deck to investigate, Alice left Mrs. A. and Loraine in the stateroom, and ran till she encountered the first available lifeboat, that boat being 11. If she didn't make it up on deck until 11 was leaving, then it would seem extremely possible that, by the time the A's reunited and made it up on deck with Loraine, they were simply too late to catch a boat. The thing is, I'm not sure how well this scenario gells with the image supposedly conjured by some survivors of Mrs. Allison smiling as she clasped her husband and daughter by the hand and they quietly awaited the end on the promenade deck.

But, it's already been stated on this thread that there is no answer here, since not even Alice Cleaver could say what became of her employers after she left them, the prospect of new information surfacing is slim in the extreme.
 
Jul 9, 2000
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>>She is not very complimentary about some of the stories told by Don Lynch about Alice!<<

Well in fairness, she has no reason to be. The Alice Cleaver on the Titanic was not the same woman who had ended up in prison for killing her own child. In fairness to Don, he researched and wrote in good faith, but in retrospect, it's obvious that some of his sources turned out to be nowhere near as reliable as he may have had reason to believe at the time.
 

Kevin Perez

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I just recently read the first page of the book ''Women and Children'' first, which I would like to add ABSOLUTELY amazes me! However, in the book, it says that Alice Clever was the murder some years ago who killed her child. I now know for a fact this is not true, however, does that mean the author of the book was inaccurate or just didn't know at that time?
 

Brian Ahern

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I deliberately left out this side of things in my post, since I figured Lynch's sources for Cleaver's life at home would have been different from his sources for her actions on the ship.

Unfortunately, the Cleaver-as-murderer myth wasn't debunked in time to keep it from being depicted in the Titanic miniseries made in 1996.
 

Kevin Perez

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Oh yeah, I just wanted to add one more thing. Although we'll never of Isham and possibly what exactly happened to Bess and her family, I strongly believe that perhaps Evans reason for staying on the ship had nothing to do with ''feeling safer''. Since the boat left a 2:05 am, seeing the bow go down must of meant something to her and sincerely doubt she would feel ''safe'', especially with the tilt grow higher by every minute. The scenario of her not getting into a lifeboat because it was too dark and not knowing there were more seats sounds more convincing IMHO then her feeling safe on a sinking ship. But, by all means I'm not doubting your, nor am I trying to sound like some know-it-all.

It's sad to thing that in a way, Evans gave her life up for almost nothing, but sacrificing her life for another person is a very good deed, and gets my respect. I love Evans, well, not exactly that love, but is so interested in her, the I'm ''hungry'' to see a picture of her, not counting the quarter covering her face.

;)

BTW, I hope this did not bore you, it's just something I feel strongly about.
 

Bob Godfrey

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Kevin, in the absence of any conclusive evidence, there's no reason why you shouldn't go with your feelings. I have to say, though, that Gracie's feelings in the matter seem to have been different. And he of course was in a better position to make a judgement than any of us. In his appraisal, he seems to be unconvinced by Caroline Brown's interpretation. His own view of the fate of Miss Evans: "'Never mind', she is said to have called out, 'I will get on a later boat'. She then ran away and was not seen again; but there was no later boat, and it would seem that after a momentary impulse, being disappointed and being unable to get into the boat, she went aft on the port side and no one saw her again". It's notable that in his summing-up of the fates of the five female victims from 1st Class, he states that three (the Allisons and Mrs Strauss) "met heroic death by choice" and two (Evans and Isham) "by some mischance".
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Kevin Perez

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Bob, I have seem to forget about that as well. I remember reading that quote she made in the Titanic at 2 am, but had a hard time trying to figure it out. However, saying that Gracie has a better position to make a judgement pretty much applies to Brown as well. After all, she was there too, but perhaps she said both? Who knows? It has been stated plenty of times, a lot of secrets of the Titanic we will never know for sure about and perhaps some of its ''secrets'' are better left alone.

And how I still long to see a picture of her!
 

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