Your favorite movie


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I had the pleasure of sharing a Mir submersible with Lori Johnston during my dive to Titanic. She educated me on a number of interesting facts about what we were seeing, and were expected to see, outside our viewports during the two-and-a-half hour descent to the ocean floor.

In my view, Lori was a peer. The only time her sex became an issue was when the Russians made her wear the women's version of the overalls all the submersible occupants wore. Hers was (in my opinion) the "cooler" version because it was an authentic Russian-made garment (with Mir patch) from the Soviet era. It had that retro 1970s Cosmonaut look about it. Mine was a non-descript overall that you could buy at any Wal Mart, with a modern Mir patch tacked on, almost as an afterthought. I should have protested such obvious sexual discrimination, but then I would have been making an issue out of nothing, really. You can see Lori and I in our respective overalls on my website, at the bottom of my 2005 Observations article.

Lori has a number of dives to Titanic, many more than me. I'll listen to anything that she has to say.

Parks
 

Mike Poirier

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Dec 31, 2004
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Lori Johnston actually wrote some interesting things for Voyage. I am very disappointed that in the past several years in course of research and also in politics that if someone has gone to school, done the work on the subject and is able to articulate it, they are deemed 'an elitest' or 'them' versus 'us'. I think people would be surprised that the people they rail against are the ones who worked their way through school, and spent years working to improve themselves to better their lives and those around them by promoting knowledge. As we have seen recently, those people are more 'us' then 'them'.
 
May 3, 2002
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re "POLITICALLY CORRECT ALERT"
from them deliver us.
Jim thanks for that tongue in cheek piece of prose.
Satire is so rare these days. Yoko may be an enigma but for me John is still very relevant for me and his presence is still greatly missed.

Seriously though, seeing men as collective entity being first demonized as rapists and then as child sex abusers feminism has lost me. I will not support an ideology that want to paint me as inferior.

I have considered Sharon's input here and in another a thread and her lack of constructive engagement leads me to question where she is coming form: gender exclusion or anti-intellectualism.[Martin shrugs]

This does not mean I am blind to things that are wrong and really issues but calling men rapists and pedophiles repeatedly becomes like the boy that cries wolf too often. We become dulled to the real meaning of the wolf and when someone actually cries "Wolf!' no one will listen because the word has be so misused in the past.

You can take it that I won't be beating my breasts etc I will recognise wisdom and knowledge where I see it regardless of who writes it.

"Change Anglo to Irish and you've got me spot on, Jim!"

Hi Sam, I think I understand what you mean. I tend to avoid it generally.
To give you a sense of it, I am glad we have been able to end the war and hopefully draw a line under it.
Hopefully with a bit of good will and the ability to negotaite, the troubled history that has been Ireland will become just that: History.
I wish for a new century for Ireland and its people regardless of what side of the noarder they live.

Siochain in einacht le ceart
peace with justice

Martin
 

Jim Kalafus

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Dec 3, 2000
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>Change Anglo to Irish and you've got me spot on, Jim!

Okay, my friend, you are now a patriarchal Irish oppressor.

>Douglas Wooley who was speculating the Titanic would be in a condition very much as she sank in.

Back in 1973, I had an issue of Sea Classics with a long article on just that subject. It painted a glorious word picture of preserved interiors, clothing and paper still undecayed etc etc etc. Up until the discovery, I had hoped that it would prove partially true.

>Jim thanks for that tongue in cheek piece of prose. Satire is so rare these days.

I was serious.

happy.gif


>lack of constructive engagement leads me to question where she is coming form: gender exclusion or anti-intellectualism.

The concepts are not mutually exclusive.

I think what we are seeing here is what I call the "Denatured Bella Abzug Syndrome." Bella, bless her, was outspoken almost to the point of being scary, confrontational, completely unwilling to back down once she had an idea, and 100% dedicated to the causes in which she believed. When she made an "inflammatory" remark, you could bet that she knew the rebuttals to any opposing viewpoint throw her way, in almost ad naseum...ooop...ad nauseum detail. She was a tough, well educated, product of depression era New York City and 'though I disagreed with about 70% of everything she said, I admired, and admire, her for her ability to quickly articulate rebuttals, and her refusal to back down. Sadly, although many women modeled, and model, themselves on Bella's "In Ya Face" style, they lack her intellect, cajones, and quick mind. They find themselves in trouble when they make Abzugian broad generalizations and then flounder humiliatingly when they cannot quickly or effectively answer those who call them on it.

One quick Bella anecdote with a shipwreck tie in. Fanatical liberal Abzug actually worked quite effectively with old money conservative Millicent Fenwick (whose mother, Mary Hammond, died on the Lusitania) although they seemed to be polar opposites in all regards. When Millicent was new to Washington, she attempted to enter a session wearing a proper hat, and was stopped by the doorman who told her that a hat might be correct for church but was simply not worn in the Senate. Millicent removed her hat. Jumping ahead a generation, when Bella first attempted to enter a session wearing one of her trademark hats, the doorman used the same line and without missing a beat Bella replied "f you" and kept walking with her hat on. I think that Ms Abzug would have been a fun travelling companion.
 

Jim Hathaway

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>>I think people would be surprised that the people they rail against are the ones who worked their way through school, and spent years working to improve themselves to better their lives and those around them by promoting knowledge. As we have seen recently, those people are more 'us' then 'them'.<<
I agree, the people who worked and studied hard to improve their lot know the value of education and how hard it is to get a good one.
After learning my trade, and becoming competent in my field, I have gone back to studying for the pure joy of learning and in a field I never thought would interest me.
The amusing part is on the occasions I have been met with cynical comments about my studies, the person who uttered the comment,( a coworker) moments later could be overheard engaged in a discussion of championship wrestling,or something else similarly cerebral, so it is worth considering the source.
 

Jim Kalafus

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Dec 3, 2000
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>Honjitsu tenki seiro naredomo nami takashi

Sugoi!

Everything a person opts to 'zone out' on represents another door being slammed shut somewhere down the road.

Oh, and Jim, you were correct when you pointed out in your email that not only was the iceberg a MALE oppressor, but it was also white, cold and rigid. And, worst of all, the officers later attempted to play a reverse race card, in effect blaming the iceberg by accusing it of being black! Talk about a low blow- not only racist, but also INCORRECT.
 

Jim Kalafus

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Dec 3, 2000
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No. I thought that Bridget was frigid and the iceberg was rigid, but now that you mention it, the white male oppressor could very well have been rigid AND frigid. Particularly if he was hiding his homosexuality behind a socially acceptable 'traditional male' facade. Come to think about it, a mere 12 square foot swath of damage DOES imply that his heart wasn't in it, and he didn't finish.....probably either blamed it on "work stress" or found some way of making the poor Titanic feel like the guilty party.
 
Dec 2, 2000
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>>Quite frankly, I don't need watching some uppity scientist male or female leaning seriously over the microscope to make the breathless discovery that--surprise, suprise--that the Titanic is now covered in rust!!! what was your first clue, Sherlock?<<


Sharon, with all due respect, you're missing the point. First you make a big deal about the lack of female involvement in Titanic research (A claim which demonsterably does not hold water) only to dismiss an accomplished scientist who's into it up to her neck.

Worse, you redicule and/or trivialize it and ignore the rest. This just doesn't make any sense in light of your earlier comments. If anything you of all people ought to be the first to be cheering these people on!

Enough is enough. If you're not interested in technical and forensics issues, that's fine. It's not everybody's cup of tea. But grant to those who are, and who are making important contributions their due credit. Dr. Johnston has earned her laurals.
 

Jim Kalafus

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Dec 3, 2000
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>Ok Jims two, I am trying really hard not to bust a gut as I sit here in a library reading your posts.

Yes, ten-plus years later "Politically Correct" is fun to rag on. What is scary to ponder is that if Jim and I were making the same remarks with a straight face in a Social Theories class or seminar (Ovular, in 1995 terminology) back in the day, not only would they have been discussed seriously, but we would have been viewed as examples of the "cleansed man."

But, as Martin pointed out, there was quite a bit going on back then that was not funny. For myself, an old style Liberal, it was depressing to see people I once agreed with making fools of themselves by, on the one hand, screaming about infringment of free speech while on the other, campaigning for Draconian speech codes on campus and the workplace that, honestly, seemed gender targeted. When one pointed that contradiction out, one would generally be greeted with a chorus of what Camille Paglia termed "wuffling" (The noise a P.C. Liberal makes when attempting to answer the unanswerable) and, as the decade progressed, I found myself drifting more and more towards the Conservatives who, if nothing else, could at least articulate their positions clearly. (In 2007 I have drifted again, towards Nihilism, but that's a whole other thread) My most unpleasant PC memory was of yet another "Discovery Ovular" I attended, at which the organiser and myself ended up screaming at one another when I pointed out, rightly, that rape is not exclusively a crime directed at females but when it happens to straight men (nearly always as an act of degradation committed during another crime) they tend not to report it for obvious reasons, and when it happens to gay men it tends not to be taken 'seriously' if reported (a 'What did you do to provoke it?' mindset like that directed at women in the 1950s in a similar situation exists, sad to say) and, to make a long story short, I was greeted with shrieks of "IT'S NOT THE SAME THING!" and suddenly I was in a brawl tht makes my Branson discussions seem positively demure. Faced by someone who can give as good as he gets and did not back down, a rarity on campus by that point, my opponent resorted to calling me everything other than a white woman, but, since it was at a college that I did not attend, there was nothing they could do to me other than Show Me The Door. Had I ATTENDED that school, chances are good that I could have been censured or expelled for "insensitivity."

So, under a facade of parody, I am actually quite hostile towards those who blather as if this is still 1995.

>Or performance anxiety?

A Real Man never has it!
happy.gif
 
May 3, 2002
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"there was quite a bit going on back then that was not funny"
Jim the sad thing is over here it is STILL bloody well going on!!! and driven by people who I once shared political space with. There have been many sell outs from the so called left. Even without white rigid, or was that frigid patriarchal icebergs.

Warren Farrell's book The Myth of Myth Male Power is articulate challenge and rebuttal of the cries of patriarchy by someone who can still see the woods for the trees[he could not be accused of being a misogynist]. Misandry/ist/thropic is a new word in my vocabulary.

But hopefully George Harrison was right and all things will pass.

cheers

Martin
 
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sharon rutman

Guest
Michael--you're the one missing the point. One token female scientist studying rust just doesn't cut it. I can't wait for the next Titanic documentary when the scientists are going to be hunched over a conference table trying to figure out what an iceberg was made of! Don't laugh--Senator Smith asked that question of Fifth Officer Lowe.

My female friends out there have sure been sort of quiet. Ladies, what say you?
 
Dec 2, 2000
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>>But hopefully George Harrison was right and all things will pass.<<

The so-called Radical Militant Feminism might pass away, but all that means is that it'll be replaced by something just as, if not even more outrageous in it's extremes which attracts "All For The Cause" type crusaders. If anybody has a sense that I'm sick and tired of this sort of thing, you've got a lot to go on.

The hell of it is that some of these people are not always entirely wrong in some of their concerns, and that makes it all the more difficult to deal with the lot when they go overboard. Point out that they're shooting themselves in the foot and worse yet, be so indiscreet as to point out they're hypocrisy, and all of the sudden, you're a racist, sexist, homophobic, bigoted, revanchist right winger, fascist, left wing-nut, communist, atheist, religious fanatic, Nazi or [ fill in the blank with catchy debate stopping label of choice to put somebody on the defensive here ].

It's old and worn out.
 

Mike Poirier

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Dec 31, 2004
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Wow- that was a mouthful!
happy.gif

I can't think of anything you left out... Although, with the DC Madam list coming out- I guess the word 'john' might be added.
 
Dec 2, 2000
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>>Michael--you're the one missing the point.<<

No I'm not.

>>One token female scientist studying rust just doesn't cut it.<<

A Ph.D doesn't cut it? Dr. Johnston is marching to the beat of her own drummer and that doesn't cut it?

>>My female friends out there have sure been sort of quiet. Ladies, what say you?<<

They've already spoken. With every post thet make here, such as what Inger has done, with every directorship they hold, with every article they pen, with every website they put up, with every book they publish, they have spoken loud and clear Sharon. They do they're own thing, persuing their own interests from the cultural, to the biographical, to the scientific, and to the technical, women have spoken. They continue to speak, they continue to be heard, they continue to earn the respect they're due. They've been named here and it seems strange that you continue to dismiss one and ignore the others.

They don't need the sort of All-For-The-Cause-Nothing-Is-Ever-Good-Enough sort of line you're offering here which actually does way more harm then good.

They do just fine without it.
 
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sharon rutman

Guest
Militant radical feminism? Wow! Man, in 1912 women didn't even vote and now we get to study rust? I guess the we really have come a long way and I just don't appreciate it. That's progress!? Oh well, I'm just a disgrace to my gender. I didn't realize that when I pointed out that after 95 years women just haven't cracked the mythical glass ceiling when it comes to the Titanic I was going to start a revolution. Well on my English comprehensive exams I wrote a feminist critique of A Night To Remember (forgive me Walter) and, to make a long story short, I passed the test. Eh, what do I know?
 
Dec 2, 2000
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>>I passed the test. Eh, what do I know?<<

Maybe nothing and maybe quite a bit. I haven't seen your thesis so I'll reserve judgement. In any event, the notion that women haven't cracked that glass ceiling your talking about has been thoroughly trashed by the numerous examples cited above, and not just by me.

If you want to do "The Cause" some real good, you can start by acknowladging the achievements that plenty of women have made and which have been pointed out numerous times above.

We had no trouble finding them.
 

Sam Brannigan

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Feb 24, 2007
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Sharon,

What would you prefer Dr. Johnson to study?

Soft furnishings in the public rooms? The structure of the masts? How much paint was needed to coat the cabins?

What does she have to be interested in for you to show any respect for her?

As for "the mythical glass ceiling", that's exactly what it is - a myth.

I am sure that everyone else here would be as delighted as me to see your feminist critique of ANTR - where is the barrier here to stop you sharing it?
 

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