Plus, there is Come Josephine, in My Flying Machine on the Back to Titanic CD, which was a very popular song during that time.
Anthony, I'm assuming you're referring to And the Band Played On? If so, I own that CD as well and I enjoy it very much.
Better Music
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Plus, there is Come Josephine, in My Flying Machine on the Back to Titanic CD, which was a very popular song during that time.
Anthony, I'm assuming you're referring to And the Band Played On? If so, I own that CD as well and I enjoy it very much.
Bob Godfrey
Member
Anthony and George: I believe that survivor Hannah O'Brien was a victim of the 1918 'flu epidemic. Also possibly Ellen (Nellie) O'Dwyer.
George L. Lorton
Member
Well seems you were right, Anthony. No apologies needed anyways.
I'm lucky if I can remember what I was doing yesterday much less if any Titanic Survivors died of the influenza
Moving indeed back to music. I'm finding that I am more interested in waltz then I was. "Dream Of Autumn' is a favorite. Actually though I'm getting in to the swing of things literally. Well into swing. I grew up listening to the Andrews Sisters. Bei Mir Bist Du Shon is my favorite.
Moving indeed back to music. I'm finding that I am more interested in waltz then I was. "Dream Of Autumn' is a favorite. Actually though I'm getting in to the swing of things literally. Well into swing. I grew up listening to the Andrews Sisters. Bei Mir Bist Du Shon is my favorite.
Robert T. Paige
Member
Moving back to music:
ANTR had its "I'm Off To Philadelphia In The Mornin'" which has been proved to be historically correct.
I'm not sure but I would assume the music following : "Now give us a jig" was also correct.
The 1953 "Titanic"'s "Oh That Navajo Rag" was first tagged by critics as "just something of 1950's music", but a little research reveals it was actually on the "hit parade" in 1911.
Also, would the Irish have been in the majority as far as the steerage passengers went, or would it have been more evenly diversified as far as percentages from each country was concerned ?
ANTR had its "I'm Off To Philadelphia In The Mornin'" which has been proved to be historically correct.
I'm not sure but I would assume the music following : "Now give us a jig" was also correct.
The 1953 "Titanic"'s "Oh That Navajo Rag" was first tagged by critics as "just something of 1950's music", but a little research reveals it was actually on the "hit parade" in 1911.
Also, would the Irish have been in the majority as far as the steerage passengers went, or would it have been more evenly diversified as far as percentages from each country was concerned ?
Jim Kalafus
Member
Geo: Only semi-relevant to this thread, but fun anyway, is the diary letter recovered from the body of Princess Sophia victim Auris McQueen. In addition to being stranded on a reef in raging storm, Spanish Flu had broken out aboard the trapped ship and I believe the number of cases McQueen mentioned was five.
>I freely confess to finding that recurrent 'Oirish' motif dull, dull, dull...what was it doing in the film in the first place?
Ah Martin. The score was, in terms of innovation, flair, and overall quality, perfectly suited to the artistic ambition and achievement of the film as a whole. From the towering, shimmering, transcendent splendor of Celine Dion's theme, (which some would call Streisandian in its scope) to the haunting lilt of genuine 1990s "Irish" instrumentals (redolent of misty mornings, rolling green hills, Darby O'Gill and the Little People, and commercials for Irish Spring: The Double Deodorant Soap) the score merited the same amount of praise as did the script and the production values. Truly a breathtaking synthesis of great elements and, as such, beyond reproach. Only a heel would cavil.
But, playing the devils advocate, Martin, if one asks why was the Irish MUSIC there, one must then ask the linked question, why was there an apple cheeked Irish mother present to....oh so heartbreakingly....tuck in her two wee ones as death loomed, when in fact there WAS only one Irish mother in third class and she was traveling with four (relatively) older boys?
>After all, think of 'The Sound of Music'. Here is a film set in pre-war Austria and hardly a note of genuine folk music!
Some would say, hardly a note of genuine music, period. The shocking tale of an irritating novice nun who causes OTHER nuns to commit the deadly sin of malice (They even sing a song about how incredibly annoying she is) until they farm her out as a governess. She turns a bunch of well behaved children into unruly brats, vandalises the furniture, seduces a man away from his fiancee and then, to top it all off, at the end of the film leads the captain and his children to a no-doubt torturous death in Germany as she walks them out of Austria and into Germany over the Alps. One would think that a film about a manipulative, destructive anti-hero would have a dark and somehow threatening score yet, time and again the sinister actions onscreen are paired to songs about Goatherds and lyrics that pair "adieu" with "you." Incongruous, to say the least.
>I freely confess to finding that recurrent 'Oirish' motif dull, dull, dull...what was it doing in the film in the first place?
Ah Martin. The score was, in terms of innovation, flair, and overall quality, perfectly suited to the artistic ambition and achievement of the film as a whole. From the towering, shimmering, transcendent splendor of Celine Dion's theme, (which some would call Streisandian in its scope) to the haunting lilt of genuine 1990s "Irish" instrumentals (redolent of misty mornings, rolling green hills, Darby O'Gill and the Little People, and commercials for Irish Spring: The Double Deodorant Soap) the score merited the same amount of praise as did the script and the production values. Truly a breathtaking synthesis of great elements and, as such, beyond reproach. Only a heel would cavil.
But, playing the devils advocate, Martin, if one asks why was the Irish MUSIC there, one must then ask the linked question, why was there an apple cheeked Irish mother present to....oh so heartbreakingly....tuck in her two wee ones as death loomed, when in fact there WAS only one Irish mother in third class and she was traveling with four (relatively) older boys?
>After all, think of 'The Sound of Music'. Here is a film set in pre-war Austria and hardly a note of genuine folk music!
Some would say, hardly a note of genuine music, period. The shocking tale of an irritating novice nun who causes OTHER nuns to commit the deadly sin of malice (They even sing a song about how incredibly annoying she is) until they farm her out as a governess. She turns a bunch of well behaved children into unruly brats, vandalises the furniture, seduces a man away from his fiancee and then, to top it all off, at the end of the film leads the captain and his children to a no-doubt torturous death in Germany as she walks them out of Austria and into Germany over the Alps. One would think that a film about a manipulative, destructive anti-hero would have a dark and somehow threatening score yet, time and again the sinister actions onscreen are paired to songs about Goatherds and lyrics that pair "adieu" with "you." Incongruous, to say the least.
Bob Godfrey
Member
Robert: The British (which in 1912 included the Irish) were by far the largest contingent in 3rd Class, followed by the Swedes and Syrians (from present-day Lebanon). And the Irish, especially if we include those who had attained US citizenship, were more numerous than the English, Scots and Welsh put together.
Martin Williams
Member
I'll try and get hold of a copy of that I Salonisti compilation you mention, Jason. It sounds great.
George, I'm not sure about 'Titanic' survivors, but I know that Colonel Gracie's newly-married daughter, Edith, succumbed to flu in 1918. She was perhaps a likely victim; I've read elsewhere on the board that the pandemic hit the late teen and twenty-something age-bracket particularly hard.
I'm sure some will beg to differ (Jim) but one of the best 'period' soundtracks I'm aware of in any movie is that found in Jack Clayton's 1974 adaptation of 'The Great Gatsby'. Yes, yes, I know - Robert Redford as the eponymous hero emotes with all the gut-wrenching poignance of a tailor's dummy...and Mia Farrow retains throughout the slightly crazed look of a four-year-old who's orange cordial hasn't been sufficiently diluted...but the evening gowns, the suits by Ralph Lauren, the vintage automobiles and the jewels (which I believe were lent by Cartier) certainly make for one hell of an eyeful. Plus, it is nice to see the mansions of Newport, Rosecliff and Marble House among them, standing in for the palaces of East and West Egg.
Anyway...the film features some absolutely cracking music which I'm pretty sure must be authentic to the mid-Twenties period. There are at least a couple of very rousing renditions of the Charleston - and we get to see the party guests dance it too; just watching them leaves me exhausted - besides various other hits of the era. Sadly, I can't hum them all here, so I don't suppose anybody will be able to identify them for me. There is, however, one vocal arrangement of a very catchy ditty which begins something like this...
'Oh, my beautiful daisy
I'm going crazy over you!
Sunshine, little April shower,
You're a flower traced in dew'
...and I often find it trotting merrily through my head at the most unlikely moments.
(And, whilst we're on the subject of this particular version of 'The Great Gatsby' - I possess an old copy on VHS. This features all the wonderful music I've mentioned above. However, I once caught the same film broadcast on terrestrial television here in England and I was staggered to find that the soundtrack had been dubbed over with different tunes entirely - not one of which was a patch on those I'm most familiar with! Why, oh why, this should have been - copyright or something - I have no idea).
George, I'm not sure about 'Titanic' survivors, but I know that Colonel Gracie's newly-married daughter, Edith, succumbed to flu in 1918. She was perhaps a likely victim; I've read elsewhere on the board that the pandemic hit the late teen and twenty-something age-bracket particularly hard.
I'm sure some will beg to differ (Jim) but one of the best 'period' soundtracks I'm aware of in any movie is that found in Jack Clayton's 1974 adaptation of 'The Great Gatsby'. Yes, yes, I know - Robert Redford as the eponymous hero emotes with all the gut-wrenching poignance of a tailor's dummy...and Mia Farrow retains throughout the slightly crazed look of a four-year-old who's orange cordial hasn't been sufficiently diluted...but the evening gowns, the suits by Ralph Lauren, the vintage automobiles and the jewels (which I believe were lent by Cartier) certainly make for one hell of an eyeful. Plus, it is nice to see the mansions of Newport, Rosecliff and Marble House among them, standing in for the palaces of East and West Egg.
Anyway...the film features some absolutely cracking music which I'm pretty sure must be authentic to the mid-Twenties period. There are at least a couple of very rousing renditions of the Charleston - and we get to see the party guests dance it too; just watching them leaves me exhausted - besides various other hits of the era. Sadly, I can't hum them all here, so I don't suppose anybody will be able to identify them for me. There is, however, one vocal arrangement of a very catchy ditty which begins something like this...
'Oh, my beautiful daisy
I'm going crazy over you!
Sunshine, little April shower,
You're a flower traced in dew'
...and I often find it trotting merrily through my head at the most unlikely moments.
(And, whilst we're on the subject of this particular version of 'The Great Gatsby' - I possess an old copy on VHS. This features all the wonderful music I've mentioned above. However, I once caught the same film broadcast on terrestrial television here in England and I was staggered to find that the soundtrack had been dubbed over with different tunes entirely - not one of which was a patch on those I'm most familiar with! Why, oh why, this should have been - copyright or something - I have no idea).
Stanley C Jenkins
Member
>>And the Irish, especially if we include those who had attained US citizenship, were more numerous than the English, Scots and Welsh put together<<
I don’t quite understand this last sentence. Does it refer to ethnicity or citizenship? If it refers to citizenship it is clearly an anachronism, as there was no Irish citizenship in 1912 — indeed, there was no English citizenship either. And if “Irish” (in 1912 “British”) citizens had attained US citizenship, how could they still be described as “Irish”?
Having made that somewhat contorted point, I assume that Bob is classing all of those who boarded at Queenstown as Irish? If, in addition to this group of passengers, we are considering the Belfast contingent to have been Irish, there would have been a large Irish contingent aboard the Irish-built ship. I also suspect that a large number of the crew, particularly the Liverpudlian trimmers and firemen, would also have been of Irish descent, so Bob is probably right — just as he is undoubtedly right in pointing out that most of the passengers and crew aboard RMS Titanic were British citizens.
For what it is worth, I think the Irish music is the best feature of Cameron’s Titanic, and the only aspect of the film that is better than A Night to Remember (which, as a matter of interest, was produced by an Irishman.)
I don’t quite understand this last sentence. Does it refer to ethnicity or citizenship? If it refers to citizenship it is clearly an anachronism, as there was no Irish citizenship in 1912 — indeed, there was no English citizenship either. And if “Irish” (in 1912 “British”) citizens had attained US citizenship, how could they still be described as “Irish”?
Having made that somewhat contorted point, I assume that Bob is classing all of those who boarded at Queenstown as Irish? If, in addition to this group of passengers, we are considering the Belfast contingent to have been Irish, there would have been a large Irish contingent aboard the Irish-built ship. I also suspect that a large number of the crew, particularly the Liverpudlian trimmers and firemen, would also have been of Irish descent, so Bob is probably right — just as he is undoubtedly right in pointing out that most of the passengers and crew aboard RMS Titanic were British citizens.
For what it is worth, I think the Irish music is the best feature of Cameron’s Titanic, and the only aspect of the film that is better than A Night to Remember (which, as a matter of interest, was produced by an Irishman.)
George L. Lorton
Member
Thanks Jim! Also great analogy of The Sound Of Music, Jim.
I liked the Irish Folk Music in Steerage. But that's just me.
Bob,
I didn't know there were Irish in Steerage who had obtained U.S. Citizenship?
I also notice that they changed the Music on The Great Gatsby. (1974) I hated the new music they replace the original soundtrack with. It sounds ever so hokey. Makes the film less better indeed. Mia Farrow was disappointing as Daisy but I blame that on bad casting. Faye Dunaway should of had that role with Paul Newman as Gatsby. Well Redford was alright but at this time Watergate was happening and he was always in his trailer watching the News and I think it effected his performance. His mind was on other matters other then how Jay Gatsby is gonna win his Daisy. Newman would of just been better as Gatsby anyways. Kathryn Leigh Scott was great as Catherine, Myrtle's sister. I got to she her was Maggie Evans on re-runs of Dark Shadows on the Sci-Fi Channel in the 90's. That was fun. What really was entertaining though was Karen Black as Myrtle Wilson and Scott Wilson as George Wilson. "You can't hide from the eyes of god, Myrtle." To which Myrtle replies "It's a sign! Your so dumb you don't even know your alive." They and Bruce Dern as Tom Buchanan stole the show. Should of made a movie just about them and called George, Tom and Myrtle. I'd watch it.
Bob Godfrey
Member
Stanley, by 'Irish' I mean people who were born and raised in Ireland, no matter whether they were British or American citizens and no matter where they boarded the Titanic. That I think is what Robert wanted to know, to gauge the appropriateness of the Irish themes in the film soundtrack - at least as far as the 3rd Class were concerned. The Irish certainly make up the largest component of an ethnically-mixed bag, but nevertheless most of the 3rd Class passengers were not Irish or from any other part of the British Isles.
George: I didn't know there was anyone "in Steerage" on the Titanic.
George: I didn't know there was anyone "in Steerage" on the Titanic.
Martin Williams
Member
George, you are brilliant! Paul Newman and Faye Dunaway in those fabulous costumes and locations - now, THAT would be a film worth seeing!
I loved the girl, whoever she was, who played Jordan Baker. You could tell she was a bit of a minx.
Any ideas why they re-dubbed the soundtrack, though?
I loved the girl, whoever she was, who played Jordan Baker. You could tell she was a bit of a minx.
Any ideas why they re-dubbed the soundtrack, though?
Stanley C Jenkins
Member
Hello Bob,
I understand that definition but, would I be right in thinking that Senan Molony has defined the "Irish" as those of Irish origin who boarded the vessel at Queenstown (and thereby ignored the Belfast contingent?) The other bit that confused me was the idea that there were Americans of Irish origin aboard the ship, as I could not immediately think of any.
I understand that definition but, would I be right in thinking that Senan Molony has defined the "Irish" as those of Irish origin who boarded the vessel at Queenstown (and thereby ignored the Belfast contingent?) The other bit that confused me was the idea that there were Americans of Irish origin aboard the ship, as I could not immediately think of any.
Jim Kalafus
Member
>I'm sure some will beg to differ (Jim) but one of the best 'period' soundtracks I'm aware of in any movie is that found in Jack Clayton's 1974 adaptation of 'The Great Gatsby'.
Mediocre. Again, perfectly suited to the film in question. The CHOICE of material was brilliant; the execution less so. A curse which later resufaced, disastrously, in Chicago: the music of the 1920s does not "translate" well to modern ears. Too harsh; some would say dischordant in places. So, Hollywood tends to dull it down by giving rather lush 1940s style arrangements to music which was originally anything but lush.
Try this: find Marilyn Miller's original recording of Jerome Kern's "Who?" Then, find Judy Garland's 1946 version of the same song, from when she played Marilyn Miller in Til The Clouds Roll By. Then, listen to the Gatsby soundtrack version and see whether it favors 1923 or 1946.
If you can find it, check out the Jazz Singer reissue with the bonus DVD of 1927-29 musical shorts. The best film on it ("Roof Garden Revue")shows how fun the original harsh orchestrations COULD be, and also shows exactly what one would have seen at a 1927 rooftop nightclub. The worst film of a very bad lot, "The Night Court" ALSO features several nightclub acts but....frankly....they really suck, and seem so far removed from what we know as quality entertainment that they seem to be from another planet. The rest- dozens of hotel orchestras, very middle of the road, give you an EXCELLENT idea of the quality (and arrangement)of the music that someone of jay Gatsby's sort would have had at his parties. And, demonstrates why Hollywood avoids faithfully reproducing the music of the era...unlike the costumes, cars and decor, it does not make the jump into the present day very well.
So, with the Gatsby soundtrack, there was a dissonance between what one was seeing onscreen and what one was hearing; images of the 1920s, but orchestration of the 1940s. Rather like Eisenhower-era footage overdubbed with 1980s techno music in a 2008 film....multiple layers of confusion.
Actually, the film Titanic would have been best suited with NO score at all. A carry-over from silent days, music dubbed over film is the cinematic equivalent of a laugh track. If, through script, acting, and editing you cannot convey the mood you are trying to establish to your audience, then you've already half-failed.
>(And, whilst we're on the subject of this particular version of 'The Great Gatsby' - I possess an old copy on VHS. This features all the wonderful music I've mentioned above. However, I once caught the same film broadcast on terrestrial television here in England and I was staggered to find that the soundtrack had been dubbed over with different tunes entirely - not one of which was a patch on those I'm most familiar with! Why, oh why, this should have been - copyright or something - I have no idea).
Because, the original recordings were still covered by the original 1974 contracts when the VHS tape was issued. The owners of the music, the writers of the music, (possibly) the performers, and various other rights-holders had signed contracts pertaining to the specific ways their music could and could not be commercially used. VHS and home video as we knew it did not exist in 1974. Therefore, the fiercely protected "Rights of Usage" did not extend to that field. And so one finds quite a few videos from that era with new music overdubbed.
Mediocre. Again, perfectly suited to the film in question. The CHOICE of material was brilliant; the execution less so. A curse which later resufaced, disastrously, in Chicago: the music of the 1920s does not "translate" well to modern ears. Too harsh; some would say dischordant in places. So, Hollywood tends to dull it down by giving rather lush 1940s style arrangements to music which was originally anything but lush.
Try this: find Marilyn Miller's original recording of Jerome Kern's "Who?" Then, find Judy Garland's 1946 version of the same song, from when she played Marilyn Miller in Til The Clouds Roll By. Then, listen to the Gatsby soundtrack version and see whether it favors 1923 or 1946.
If you can find it, check out the Jazz Singer reissue with the bonus DVD of 1927-29 musical shorts. The best film on it ("Roof Garden Revue")shows how fun the original harsh orchestrations COULD be, and also shows exactly what one would have seen at a 1927 rooftop nightclub. The worst film of a very bad lot, "The Night Court" ALSO features several nightclub acts but....frankly....they really suck, and seem so far removed from what we know as quality entertainment that they seem to be from another planet. The rest- dozens of hotel orchestras, very middle of the road, give you an EXCELLENT idea of the quality (and arrangement)of the music that someone of jay Gatsby's sort would have had at his parties. And, demonstrates why Hollywood avoids faithfully reproducing the music of the era...unlike the costumes, cars and decor, it does not make the jump into the present day very well.
So, with the Gatsby soundtrack, there was a dissonance between what one was seeing onscreen and what one was hearing; images of the 1920s, but orchestration of the 1940s. Rather like Eisenhower-era footage overdubbed with 1980s techno music in a 2008 film....multiple layers of confusion.
Actually, the film Titanic would have been best suited with NO score at all. A carry-over from silent days, music dubbed over film is the cinematic equivalent of a laugh track. If, through script, acting, and editing you cannot convey the mood you are trying to establish to your audience, then you've already half-failed.
>(And, whilst we're on the subject of this particular version of 'The Great Gatsby' - I possess an old copy on VHS. This features all the wonderful music I've mentioned above. However, I once caught the same film broadcast on terrestrial television here in England and I was staggered to find that the soundtrack had been dubbed over with different tunes entirely - not one of which was a patch on those I'm most familiar with! Why, oh why, this should have been - copyright or something - I have no idea).
Because, the original recordings were still covered by the original 1974 contracts when the VHS tape was issued. The owners of the music, the writers of the music, (possibly) the performers, and various other rights-holders had signed contracts pertaining to the specific ways their music could and could not be commercially used. VHS and home video as we knew it did not exist in 1974. Therefore, the fiercely protected "Rights of Usage" did not extend to that field. And so one finds quite a few videos from that era with new music overdubbed.
Bob Godfrey
Member
Stanley, you'd need to check the BoT Queenstown boarding list for those who had declared themselves to be aliens. Margaret Rice, Margaret Daly and Mary Mangan are three that come to mind - Irish born and bred but listed as US citizens. There were a lot more like these boarding at Queenstown who were Irish-born but returning to their homes in the US, having emigrated years before. Some declared themselves to be US citizens, others did not. You may find the same person listed as either American or British depending on which list you're looking at. Certainly there were a lot of people travelling back to the US in Third Class who, as returning residents, were not immigrants and were exempt from inspection at Ellis Island.
Martin Williams
Member
Thanks for that very comprehensive explanation, Jim. I've always wondered.
The notion of 'period' tunes being filtered through later arrangements is one I've never really considered before. I adore the sound of Twenties and Thirties dance music and possess various recordings from the era, besides much later versions. Featured on the same compilation as my 1918 recording of 'The Tiger Rag', I have 'The Breakaway' which was (I believe) first featured in 'Movietone Follies of 1929'. It is indeed discordant - so much so, that one is practically left clutching one's ears at certain points. God only knows what it must have sounded like live when the band struck up at the Embassy or the Cafe de Paris! Then again, I have often pondered what an authentic Twenties orchestration would sound like when recorded with modern equipment. I have a 1925 version of the original Charleston (from the show 'Running Wild') but it barely resembles the same tune played by The Pasadena Roof Orchestra sixty years later, being incredibly muted and muffled by comparison.
Lastly, some of the singers of the inter-war years sound hilariously quaint to twenty-first century ears. Al Jolson, Gracie Fields, Binnie Hale, Hutch, even Fred Astaire, would be laughed off any stage they took to in 2009 - although Sophie Tucker, singing 'Some of These Days', still retains fantastic musical 'presence' and listenability.
The notion of 'period' tunes being filtered through later arrangements is one I've never really considered before. I adore the sound of Twenties and Thirties dance music and possess various recordings from the era, besides much later versions. Featured on the same compilation as my 1918 recording of 'The Tiger Rag', I have 'The Breakaway' which was (I believe) first featured in 'Movietone Follies of 1929'. It is indeed discordant - so much so, that one is practically left clutching one's ears at certain points. God only knows what it must have sounded like live when the band struck up at the Embassy or the Cafe de Paris! Then again, I have often pondered what an authentic Twenties orchestration would sound like when recorded with modern equipment. I have a 1925 version of the original Charleston (from the show 'Running Wild') but it barely resembles the same tune played by The Pasadena Roof Orchestra sixty years later, being incredibly muted and muffled by comparison.
Lastly, some of the singers of the inter-war years sound hilariously quaint to twenty-first century ears. Al Jolson, Gracie Fields, Binnie Hale, Hutch, even Fred Astaire, would be laughed off any stage they took to in 2009 - although Sophie Tucker, singing 'Some of These Days', still retains fantastic musical 'presence' and listenability.
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