New Lusitania specials

[kosta kokkinozis]

"A period torpedo was essentially an unguided bomb..."
Hi Michael, that would of course change in the next war. I hear what you are saying about DCs. Could a heavy machine gun or small artillery have made a diffirence against a submerged U-boat?

"might have made a difference were incapable of keeping up!

If they couldn't make 18-21 knots I agree. What were those MTB's capable of? By rights the Lusi should have been doing 21 there but Turner wanted a straight run up the Mersey Bar the next morning.


"One error was casting a bearded Capt Smith lookalike as Capt Turner-"

Hi Tarn, If Dow had been on the bridge I may have been a bit closer,bearing in mind that captain Do's beard to me look similar to Czar Nicholas II and King George V. A wee way back you said..

"I think a Lusitania movie is LONG overdue"

You can say that again . A German TV 2 part mini series on the Wilhelm Gustloff is currently in production. Recently a German TV movie was made about the last voyage of the Pamir.

A for a movie on the Lusitania I would like the idea not of one filmstudio making it but instead being the work of US, German Irish and UK studios with the combined resources and skills being maximised.

And if its anything like I imagine it will be good.

cheers


WHAT was the PAMIR?

 

[Michael H. Standart]

>>Could a heavy machine gun or small artillery have made a diffirence against a submerged U-boat?<<

No.

Bullets don't penetrate that far and expend most of their energy upon hitting the water, and if you can use artillary, you might as well use depth charges. They don't explode on impact with the water, (Naval gun ammunition will!) and can be set to go off at a predetermined depth.

All else aside, you really had to be able to see it to kill it, and that's part of the problem. A smart U-Boat skipper (As in, wants to live long enough to collect his paycheque.) would change course in a random and unpredictable fashion so he won't be where you're dropping your ordnance. Without the modern sensors we take for granted, there was just no way to track him. Hydrophones were a step in the right direction but what little was available in 1915 wasn't all that reliable or even very useful for setting up a tracking datum, much less a firing solution.

>>If they couldn't make 18-21 knots I agree. What were those MTB's capable of?<<

Probably about the same speed or even better with the pedal to the metal. The problem here is that fuel consumption goes up dramatically when you're going all out, so even if you have the speed, you just don't have the endurance.

 

[Martin Owen Cahill]

Hi Kosta,

The Pamir was a large 2799 ton 4 masted barque, training ship. She was engine powered as well and carried grain and other such cargo. She was lost in 1957 during a hurricane off the Azores. After cargo shifted She went with the loss off all but 7 of her crew.

He sailed in New Zaland water during and after the Second World War.

Martin

 

[Dave Gittins]

The mighty Pamir was commissioned in 1905 for the famous Flying P Line. She originally had no engine. Her full story is here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pamir_%28ship%29

 

[Stanley C Jenkins]

Just a thought, but the statement "A period torpedo was essentially an unguided bomb" is not necessarily correct, insofar as the Brennan Torpedo, which was deployed at selected coastal forts around the British Empire during the late Victorian period, was a wire-guided weapon that could be steered towards its intended target with a surprising degree of accuracy. There would probably have been one of these systems in operation near the entrance to Cork Harbour during the 1890s.

 

[Michael H. Standart]

If you click on This Hotlink and scroll down to figure ten, you'll see a discussion of a wire guided weapon developed by Nordenfelt which appears to date back to the 1870's.

The Brennen torpedo is presented in figure 13 and dates to 1885. The range of these weapons wasn't all that terrific but the same can be said of just about all such period torpedos. In any event, the weapon used by the U-20 was of the unguided type which you had to shoot to where you expected the target to be.

 

[Stanley C Jenkins]

The Brennan torpedo was also developed in the 1870s. It was in service between 1883 and 1903 and had a range of about one and a half miles. The wire-guided torpedoes employed a sophisticated gyroscopic depth mechanism - the Irish inventor Louis Brennan being an expert on gyroscopes. There was a ship-launched version which seems to have been deployed in various locations, but as the story of the Brennan torpedo was shrouded in total secrecy it is difficult to obtain evidence. Having said that, the former engine rooms and launching ramps can still be found in a few places.

 

[George L. Lorton]

I saw that special last weekend and I liked it. It didn't really say anything new about the passengers. But maybe someone will make a docudrama that will or at least get people talking about The Lusitania. I liked how it showed how fast everything happened. I didn't like how it showed passengers stuck in the elevators or lifts as they called 'em back then when that didn't happened as I found out. It could have but probably didn't. But I do know that some of the crew ended up trapped in the mail room. It was only accessible though the electric elevator which was out of commission after four-eight minutes. I'd probably would have tried climbing up the shaft if I could but if not I guess it would be so long cruel world. That would be just my luck to that I would be getting a job on the ship because British Men of my age would be drafted or serving already. I'd jump for a job like that where I could travel only to end up stuck in the mail room. Where there any Americans working on the last Voyage I wonder Hmmmmmm?

 

[kosta kokkinozis]

I noted a few innacuracies with this drama,firstly the ships wheel was turned to starboard at the beginning when the order hard a starboard was given when at that time such an order would have the wheel turned to port.also when the officer orders slow astern the telegraph is moved to slow ahead.tut tut.modern RN uniforms too.but on the whole for tv it was ok.

 

[Peter Kelly]

Hi all,

I watched the programme on BBC this evening and my initial view is that the programme makers were more concerned about fitting what they comfortably could in to 90 minutes, above all else. I was not too concerned about the small errors such as "sailing west" and the ship's wheel, but rather the pace at which the programme moved along. They missed a wonderful opportunity to do much more, but instead rushed through too much, too fast.

I would like to dwell more on the positives, than the negatives, and on that subject, I would hope that most of us would agree that a programme of this type brings welcome attention to an often neglected human tragedy. On various threads on this website, and others, Lusitania enthusiasts complain about the raw deal they get in comparison to Titanic buffs and the like. With the most common complaint being that not enough documentaries or docudramas have been made on the subject of the Lusitania. Therefore I think that the making of this programme, and its wide distribution, can only benefit mankind in educating them on this, what we especially consider, a very important occurrence.

Regards,

Peter

 

[George L. Lorton]

I do agree it's nice to see something on the Lusitania. Maybe they'll do a programme on The Empress Of Ireland. Your right I shouldn't nit pick when there really isn't that much on the Lusitania. I never seen anything about the Empress at all, Documentary or Movie. I hope they make a Lusitania Movie. Mini-series would be the best.

 

[J Kent Layton]

Peter,

>>>>>On various threads on this website, and others, Lusitania enthusiasts complain about the raw deal they get in comparison to Titanic buffs and the like. With the most common complaint being that not enough documentaries or docudramas have been made on the subject of the Lusitania. Therefore I think that the making of this programme, and its wide distribution, can only benefit mankind in educating them on this, what we especially consider, a very important occurrence. <<<<<<<

I am not sure whose comments you're referring to exactly. However, here are my observations on the situation. I certainly welcome new Lusitania documentaries, docudramas, and movies.

However, the problem with the latest addition to this admittedly short roster is that it had numerous historical errors that tended to perpetuate old myths about the wreck. I found it very well done in many areas, and was certainly a commendable effort.

Even so, with this particular story being so important in world history, it's not as if getting it right would have cost them any more -- there are plenty of Lusitania researchers and historians who would have helped them to avoid these errors and make a show that was truly engaging and an accurate portrayal of history.

My hope is that there will be more Lusitania documentaries, as well. I just hope that they are correct portrayals of history.

I think that as far as movies / miniseries ideas go with the Lusitania, many companies are scared off by the fact that it would be compared to "Titanic" -- but there has to be a way around that. It wouldn't be just another boat sinking movie... it's a very different story altogether.

If anyone decides to move forward on such an idea, I really hope that they enlist some good historians on the subject to guide them.

Just a few thoughts. Take care!

 

[George L. Lorton]

I think a miniseries would be best because I'm myself hope that a British company would take up the reins because even though I'm an American and America has a very strong link at the time the ship was torpedoed it was still regarded as British and the majority of her passengers were British or Canadian which at the time were regarded even by themselves even as British Citizens. I might be wrong but this is what the books I've read about the disaster state. So feel that a British Miniseries would be best for really bringing the story to the public as it deserves. J.Kent your right companies are scared about the Lusitania being compared to Titanic.

 

[Geoff Whitfield]

George,

Re. the Empress of Ireland - you can obtain a video of a documentary made a few years back in Canada by Merlin Films. It's entitled "Journey Into Oblivion" If you go to Google and key in Seaview Imaging - it brings you to the site which sells it.

Geoff

 

[Stanley C Jenkins]

I agree that the recent BBC "full-length docudrama" was well-done but, as usual, it seemed to have a hidden agenda insofar as any white, Protestant males with English accents were portrayed as villains or fools, whereas the German submariners were, on the whole, portrayed as thoroughly decent chaps who did not really want to sink a passenger vessel.

True to form, the heroes were either women (such as Miss Dolphin) or Scotsmen such as the narrator. Similarly, Edward Carson, who was depicted as one of the "bad guys", was given a thoroughly English accent. In reality, he was a Dubliner, who is said to have had a distinct Irish accent.

It was also rather odd to see Captain "Bowler Bill" Turner - a beardless Liverpudlian with a strong Scouse accent who wore a bowler hat - transformed into a full-bearded North Midlander. I could not help thinking that Captain Smith had somehow got onto the wrong ship!