A Larger Olympic Class Liner Design?

[J Sheehan]

What if Harland and Wolff and the White Star Line had decided to take the plunge and make the design of all three Olympic Class Liners even larger than they originally were?

Say they decided to increase the length of the three liners from 882 feet to, say, around 975 feet instead, along with increasing the beam of the three ships from 92.5 feet to around 105 feet? And maybe adding in an extra deck level or two to the design to provide larger public rooms and additional cabins?

Also, this is going on the hypothetical assumption that Harland and Wolff was prepared and ready to build ships of that size, along with having the facilities to do the job.

 

[Ted Charlton. NZ - Edward Jon]

Be interesting to look up the ideal ship ratios and see how the three sister's actually fair...
Find also the ratio of Noah's Ark and compare
After Titanic disaster they renamed Gigantic the Britannic, have seen opinion's that was due to the pre WW1 European unrest, but my opinion is they changed her name to mitigate any possible negativity.
Imagine, never mind the line "Not even God can sink the Titanic"... Just take one person of notoriety to say "If she hit an iceberg as well it would be Gigantic.".... ....or similar.

I think Harland & Wolff were getting a bit to "big for their boots" as the saying goes. Technology had to catch up first

 

[MMacleod]

Be interesting to look up the ideal ship ratios and see how the three sister's actually fair...
Find also the ratio of Noah's Ark and compare
After Titanic disaster they renamed Gigantic the Britannic, have seen opinion's that was due to the pre WW1 European unrest, but my opinion is they changed her name to mitigate any possible negativity.
Imagine, never mind the line "Not even God can sink the Titanic"... Just take one person of notoriety to say "If she hit an iceberg as well it would be Gigantic.".... ....or similar.

I think Harland & Wolff were getting a bit to "big for their boots" as the saying goes. Technology had to catch up first

Hi, in response to the original question a ship of those sorts of dimensions should have been entirely possible. Hamburg America were already planning their three Imperator class liners at the time the latter two of which were pretty close to the dimensions listed. The biggest issue as mentioned would have been expanding all the infrastructure at Harland and Wolff, Southampton and New York to accommodate such dimensions. I'm not an expert on the Olympics powerplant but I know the low pressure turbines actually used for the central propeller were the biggest in the world and Britannics had to be upscaled even more to get an extra 2000 horsepower as the ship was wider than the other two sister's. I feel with the dimensions listed the Olympics unusual powerplant might not have been suitably scaleable and Harland and Wolff may have needed to make the ships quadruple screw turbines like the Lusitania and Imperator.

In regard to the Gigantic name feel its almost certain that the early plans drawn up for the Olympic trio in 1907 had the synergy in mind of Olympic, Titanic and Gigantic, all named after ancient Greek dieties similarly to how Lusitania, Mauretania and Aquitania were all named after Roman Provinces. Theres a sign at the Belfast slipway quoting the name Gigantic so that name definitely has more traction than mere speculation. The third ship was definitely renamed to Britannic though before Titanic sank as there's a whole paper trail of Harland and Wolff ordering parts for "Britannic" before Titanics maiden voyage. I believe the reasons for the name change were first that when JP Morgan bought White Star Line turning it into an American company renaming the next ship Britannic was a simple method of placating the British government. More importantly though is in around 1909 word would have began to spread that the Germans were building a massive new liner that would be ready in 1913. While Olympic and Titanic would be out the gates first and could claim the title of the largest ship in the world Gigantic would not complete until 1914 and having a ship called Gigantic not ever be the most giant ship on earth would be a bit anticlimactic.

 

[Seumas]

I believe the reasons for the name change were first that when JP Morgan bought White Star Line turning it into an American company renaming the next ship Britannic was a simple method of placating the British government.

Or else they would have done what ?

I don't dispute that the then British ruling class saw the IMM as a blow to British maritime prestige and all that sort of jingoistic nonsense, but the average bloke in the street with a woodbine in his mouth, a hard earned weeks wages in his pocket and the "pink un" under his arm likely did not give tuppence.

It also made no economic sense for the British government to declare an all out economic war on JP Morgan. Even under Morgan's IMM, the White Star, Atlantic Transport, Dominion, Leyland and American Lines between them all continued to employ thousands of British mariners, placed orders for new ships in British shipyards, built them with steel from British steel mills and set them to sea burning coal mined in British collieries. As long as that continued, the British government could live with it.

IMM although primarily funded by JP Morgan was in practice more of a split Anglo-American business operation with a number of prominent British shipowners and financiers on the board. It was also a time of gradually warming relations between the UK and USA.

 

[Richard C Elliott]

I don't think we really need to search for political or economic motives for naming the ship Britannic. They may or may not be true but either way 'Britannic' is a kind of obvious choice if you are looking for a name ending in 'ic', preferably with some geographical or nautical connection. It's a lot better than some of the previous ones they dredged up.

 

[J Sheehan]

Everyone, please stick to the subject of the question I put down. Let's not let the discussion drift off to other topics.

 

[Seumas]

Everyone, please stick to the subject of the question I put down. Let's not let the discussion drift off to other topics.

The answer is that they would and then have had three even larger, more impressive and just as beautiful ships as they designed and built in reality.

 

[MMacleod]

Or else they would have done what ?

I don't dispute that the then British ruling class saw the IMM as a blow to British maritime prestige and all that sort of jingoistic nonsense, but the average bloke in the street with a woodbine in his mouth, a hard earned weeks wages in his pocket and the "pink un" under his arm likely did not give tuppence.

It also made no economic sense for the British government to declare an all out economic war on JP Morgan. Even under Morgan's IMM, the White Star, Atlantic Transport, Dominion, Leyland and American Lines between them all continued to employ thousands of British mariners, placed orders for new ships in British shipyards, built them with steel from British steel mills and set them to sea burning coal mined in British collieries. As long as that continued, the British government could live with it.

IMM although primarily funded by JP Morgan was in practice more of a split Anglo-American business operation with a number of prominent British shipowners and financiers on the board. It was also a time of gradually warming relations between the UK and USA.

It was just a simple gesture to show some warmth towards Britain. A bit of soft diplomacy that didn't cost WSL anything.

 

[MMacleod]

Everyone, please stick to the subject of the question I put down. Let's not let the discussion drift off to other topics.

If you scale up the Olympic Class to the proportions you suggest all three would hold the title of largest ship in the world upon launch including the third ship so it would be much more likely the name Gigantic would have been kept for her.

 

[J Sheehan]

Hamburg America were already planning their three Imperator class liners at the time the latter two of which were pretty close to the dimensions listed. The biggest issue as mentioned would have been expanding all the infrastructure at Harland and Wolff, Southampton and New York to accommodate such dimensions.

Well, the latter two ships of the Imperator Class, Vaterland (later Leviathan) and Bismarck (later Majestic), were 950 feet and 956 feet in length and about were just a shade over 100 feet in width respectively, and the 975 foot length and 105 foot beam of the hypothetically larger Olympic Class design, combined with the two additional deck levels, would have exceeded the sizes of these two ships by a reasonably comfortable margin, and easily making them the largest ships in the world.

Yes, the dock facilities in Southampton and in New York City would have had to have been expanded massively to have taken ships of that size, which possibly may have even included dredging out the channels leading up to the ports in case their draught of the ships was deeper than had been expected.

I also agree that all the shipbuilding facilities at Harland and Wolff would also have needed to have been expanded to take the ships, which no doubt would have meant that the Thompson Dry Dock would needed to have been enlarged and deepened significantly to take the ships, and possibly even building the Arrol Gantry to a much larger size on which to build them, as well as even reinforcing the slipways beneath.

I feel with the dimensions listed the Olympics unusual powerplant might not have been suitably scale-able, and Harland and Wolff may have needed to make the ships quadruple screw turbines like the Lusitania and Imperator.

I also agree that the unique powerplant of the Olympic Class, the triple-screw arrangement with two sets of four-cylinder reciprocating engines and a low pressure turbine, might have been inadequate to propel a ship of that larger size at a reasonable speed across the North Atlantic, and so a four-propeller arrangement with turbine engines would have been far more suitable.

 

[DavidEvans]

The very weight of the empty chromium laden riveted steel was 46,000 tons...with a 45 KSI rating, the steel could withstand 2.5 million pounds of yield pressure within a 12 inch length and not fail....bigger or longer would be foolhardy.

 

[Ted Charlton. NZ - Edward Jon]

The very weight of the empty chromium laden riveted steel was 46,000 tons...with a 45 KSI rating, the steel could withstand 2.5 million pounds of yield pressure within a 12 inch length and not fail....bigger or longer would be foolhardy.

Hi David,
Only the US and a couple of African banana republic's still don't use metric, while can drop the above into online calculator's, imperial is but gobbly-gook to the bulk of the world.

As mid 50s with British parents, have some basic imperial knowledge as would have to convert for farming Dad i.e feet in a metre, tonnes in a ton, acres/hectares etc
But "visualise" 2.5 million pounds pressure", nope.