External differences between Titanic and Olympic
- Thread starter Caleb
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Kyle Naber
Member
Harland Duzen
Member
Welcome to ET Caleb!
Olympic A-Deck Promenade was and aways remained open but Titanic and (eventually) Britannic had roughly 1/2 of it enclosed with openable sliding windows and a exterior partition to shield against the wind.
Olympic's B-deck originally was a fully enclosed promenade but as passengers barely used it, Titanic instead had enlarged staterooms, a private promenade for some passengers and the addition of the Cafe Parisien and A la Carte Restaurant. (Post-disaster, Olympic was refitted with a similar design with a few colour changes and improvements).
(If you look at pictures of the two, you notice Titanic's B-deck has more portholes
Olympic used to have 20 lifeboats but Post-disaster was fitted with davits, more boats and collapsable along the full length of the Boat Deck totalling 64.
Both ships have subtle differences to the Boat Deck and roof atop the officer's quarters such as more / less ventilation ducts, lights, windows etc. (e.g when the Marconi Room and quarters were moved inwards, a roof light was added so the operators had some natural light during the day).
Olympic A-Deck Promenade was and aways remained open but Titanic and (eventually) Britannic had roughly 1/2 of it enclosed with openable sliding windows and a exterior partition to shield against the wind.
Olympic's B-deck originally was a fully enclosed promenade but as passengers barely used it, Titanic instead had enlarged staterooms, a private promenade for some passengers and the addition of the Cafe Parisien and A la Carte Restaurant. (Post-disaster, Olympic was refitted with a similar design with a few colour changes and improvements).
(If you look at pictures of the two, you notice Titanic's B-deck has more portholes
Olympic used to have 20 lifeboats but Post-disaster was fitted with davits, more boats and collapsable along the full length of the Boat Deck totalling 64.
Both ships have subtle differences to the Boat Deck and roof atop the officer's quarters such as more / less ventilation ducts, lights, windows etc. (e.g when the Marconi Room and quarters were moved inwards, a roof light was added so the operators had some natural light during the day).
Mark Chirnside
Member
It's a good visual comparison that Kyle posted, but I think the claim 'Bruce Ismay suggested the alteration as a way to protect the Titanic's passengers from sea spray from the bow' is not true. See:
http://www.markchirnside.co.uk/pdfs/Titanic'sA-deckPromenadeEnclosureBTS2016-MarkChirnside.pdf
Best wishes
Mark.
http://www.markchirnside.co.uk/pdfs/Titanic'sA-deckPromenadeEnclosureBTS2016-MarkChirnside.pdf
Best wishes
Mark.
Ajmal Dar
Member
Hi,
You may already know this, but if you don't then here it is.There were a few other visual differences between Titanic and Olympic as follows:
1. On Titanic B deck, the aft end of the deck had plating and windows whereas on Olympic, the aft end of B deck was open to the elements.
2. Titanic forward end C deck had 16 portholes whereas Olympic had 14 portholes. When Olympic was refitted in 1913, it got the two extra portholes. I am not sure whether this was the case with both sides of the ship, but it was the case on the starboard side.
3. Titanic's wing bridges extended over the sea by about 18 inches to 2ft. On the Olympic, the wing bridges were flush with the side of the superstructure. When Olympic was refitted in 1913, it's wing bridges were extended as per Titanic.
4. The spacing of the windows for Titanic B deck were different to the spacing of the same windows on Olympic. Titanic's spacing were uneven, whereas Olympic's were even all the way along.
As you already know, Titanic did not have promenade decks running along the length of it's B deck, but only a small amount of private promenade deck for the parlour suite on each side of the ship. The layout of the B decks of the two ships was quite different, but this was not apparent when looking at pictures of the outside of the two ships.
You probably already know about all these differences but I just love writing about the Titanic! For me, the let down for the Olympic class ships (as well as not having enough lifeboats) was that they had two reciprocating engines which were old technology and I think it should have had triple turbines, as the Lusitania and Mauretania had these in 1907. The Olympic class design was quite conservative.
Best regards,
Ajmal
You may already know this, but if you don't then here it is.There were a few other visual differences between Titanic and Olympic as follows:
1. On Titanic B deck, the aft end of the deck had plating and windows whereas on Olympic, the aft end of B deck was open to the elements.
2. Titanic forward end C deck had 16 portholes whereas Olympic had 14 portholes. When Olympic was refitted in 1913, it got the two extra portholes. I am not sure whether this was the case with both sides of the ship, but it was the case on the starboard side.
3. Titanic's wing bridges extended over the sea by about 18 inches to 2ft. On the Olympic, the wing bridges were flush with the side of the superstructure. When Olympic was refitted in 1913, it's wing bridges were extended as per Titanic.
4. The spacing of the windows for Titanic B deck were different to the spacing of the same windows on Olympic. Titanic's spacing were uneven, whereas Olympic's were even all the way along.
As you already know, Titanic did not have promenade decks running along the length of it's B deck, but only a small amount of private promenade deck for the parlour suite on each side of the ship. The layout of the B decks of the two ships was quite different, but this was not apparent when looking at pictures of the outside of the two ships.
You probably already know about all these differences but I just love writing about the Titanic! For me, the let down for the Olympic class ships (as well as not having enough lifeboats) was that they had two reciprocating engines which were old technology and I think it should have had triple turbines, as the Lusitania and Mauretania had these in 1907. The Olympic class design was quite conservative.
Best regards,
Ajmal
Kodos the Executioner
Member
White Star didn't have access to the high-pressure turbine technology, such as Cunard did when they built Lusitania and Mauretania (one of the benefits they got along with their govt. subsidy for staying out of Morgan's IMM).
And the turbines would have added a LOT to the ships' operating cost. Even though Lusitania and Mauretania were roughly 2/3rds the displacement of Olympic and Titanic, they consumed nearly a thousand tons of coal per day. White Star's ships averaged about 650 tons per day.
Ismay was a penny-pincher. Economy of operation was a big consideration when designing Olympic and Titanic.
Cheers,
Kodos//
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"Mr. Lowe! Take a bosun's party and a Master-at-Arms, and get those children off the foc'sle at once!"
Mike Spooner
Member
Hi Ajmar Dar,
You ask the deafferents between Olympic and Titanic. Well there was quite few changes made between the two ships. There is a very good book telling all the changes .TITANIC or OLYMIC WHICH SHIP SANK? By Steve Hall, Bruce Beveridge, Art Braunsceweiger and Mark Chirnside. All are expects. Its quite surprising how many changes were made from the front to the back of the ship. Decks changes on A, B, C,D & E. This is one of the main reason why without a shadow of doubt its the Titanic at the bottom of the Atlantic and not the Olympic. The book covers the truth behind the conspiracy of the switch over of the two ships too?
Engine choice? Now that can be controversial. I personal think under the leadership of William Perrie H&W fell behind on new technology of steam turbines. As by 1906 26 ships had turbines from eight different shipyards! Yes H&W did rather use old technology triple expansion engines with a low pressure turbine engine. The turbine was made under license from a arrival shipyard John Brown of Clyde side. Even the triple expansion had been succeed by quadruple expansion engine too! They are quick to mention the Lusitania and Mauretania are burning more coal. But they had brutal horse power turbines of 68,000-70,000 built for speed. As against Olympic class ships 46,000hp .As one looks at the third ship built for Cunard Aquitania all most the same as Titanic using similar turbine engines but detuned to 59,000hp using less coal with less speed. The price you pay for speed! However further development when gearbox were added a 15% improvement made. The turbines were only half the size and weight too. Space on any ship is premiere were more cargo can be carried.
Olympic & Titanic could of used turbines. But since H&W were geared to make expansion engine and not turbines.Turbine were more costly to make and set up cost too. But I cant feel it was H&W best of interest to install the older type of engine and been payed for. Then there is the after sale for parts and repairs the benefit for H&W. More money is made in % after sale than new sales?
If you want to the size of a triple expansion against a turbine same horse power. Come to the Kempton Steam Museum were both are there! Next steam up for the triple 17-18 June 2018. Turbine is not steam up were a eclectic motor as from this year has been added to turn over the engine with the engine covers lifted to exposed the working and water pump to. The triple is 800 tons. Yes smaller than Olympic class ship at 1,000 tons still four stories high. Including a further three stories below the engine for the water pumps. 62 feet high. Well worth seeing.
I shall be at Southampton this weekend 27th to see a much smaller triple expansion engines in operation on the SS Sheildhall ship, the Titanic Theme from berth 48. Four berths from Titanic set sail from berth 44 on the 10th April 1912 The berth can be see today but under a security area as brand new cars transporter ships are in operation.
Mike.
You ask the deafferents between Olympic and Titanic. Well there was quite few changes made between the two ships. There is a very good book telling all the changes .TITANIC or OLYMIC WHICH SHIP SANK? By Steve Hall, Bruce Beveridge, Art Braunsceweiger and Mark Chirnside. All are expects. Its quite surprising how many changes were made from the front to the back of the ship. Decks changes on A, B, C,D & E. This is one of the main reason why without a shadow of doubt its the Titanic at the bottom of the Atlantic and not the Olympic. The book covers the truth behind the conspiracy of the switch over of the two ships too?
Engine choice? Now that can be controversial. I personal think under the leadership of William Perrie H&W fell behind on new technology of steam turbines. As by 1906 26 ships had turbines from eight different shipyards! Yes H&W did rather use old technology triple expansion engines with a low pressure turbine engine. The turbine was made under license from a arrival shipyard John Brown of Clyde side. Even the triple expansion had been succeed by quadruple expansion engine too! They are quick to mention the Lusitania and Mauretania are burning more coal. But they had brutal horse power turbines of 68,000-70,000 built for speed. As against Olympic class ships 46,000hp .As one looks at the third ship built for Cunard Aquitania all most the same as Titanic using similar turbine engines but detuned to 59,000hp using less coal with less speed. The price you pay for speed! However further development when gearbox were added a 15% improvement made. The turbines were only half the size and weight too. Space on any ship is premiere were more cargo can be carried.
Olympic & Titanic could of used turbines. But since H&W were geared to make expansion engine and not turbines.Turbine were more costly to make and set up cost too. But I cant feel it was H&W best of interest to install the older type of engine and been payed for. Then there is the after sale for parts and repairs the benefit for H&W. More money is made in % after sale than new sales?
If you want to the size of a triple expansion against a turbine same horse power. Come to the Kempton Steam Museum were both are there! Next steam up for the triple 17-18 June 2018. Turbine is not steam up were a eclectic motor as from this year has been added to turn over the engine with the engine covers lifted to exposed the working and water pump to. The triple is 800 tons. Yes smaller than Olympic class ship at 1,000 tons still four stories high. Including a further three stories below the engine for the water pumps. 62 feet high. Well worth seeing.
I shall be at Southampton this weekend 27th to see a much smaller triple expansion engines in operation on the SS Sheildhall ship, the Titanic Theme from berth 48. Four berths from Titanic set sail from berth 44 on the 10th April 1912 The berth can be see today but under a security area as brand new cars transporter ships are in operation.
Mike.
David G. Brown
RIP
It's a matter of economics. White Star did not wish to enter the costly speed battle. If they had, then the ships would have been powered by turbines as the Cunard greyhounds were. Instead, the company chose an old-fashioned, time-proven, and low-cost to operate design. Over the 25 to 30 year expected service life of the Olympic class White Star stood to make more profits by spending less on fuel.
Passenger vessels take in money only once per voyage -- the day people board. After that, everything is expense from the meals to the lumps of coal in the furnaces. There are only two ways to increase the net/net bottom line profit: (1.) cut costs; or, (2.) raise ticket prices. Ticket prices are fixed pretty much by what the market will bear. A shipping company has to make a significant difference over its competition in order to raise prices without losing customers. For instance, reducing the five-day open ocean passage to four days. This means shaving a full 24 hours off the duration of the trip. Such an increase in speed was possible, but at great cost. As speed increase by the square, fuel burn goes up by the cube. So, those Blue Riband winners were in today's terms, "gas hogs."
If you graph the amount of extra ticket value from a faster voyage against the increased costs, the results are disappointing. Depending on the power plant it is possible that the cost of fuel can never be offset by higher ticket prices. It was the overall high cost of speed that in modern times killed the Concorde despite a public demand for short, fast flights.
"Up-and-down" triple expansion engines were well understood in the early 20th century. Designers over the previous 50 years had eliminated most of the causes for failure. This was their prime virtue -- dependability. A ship with a "blown" engine collects no ticket revenue while repairs are made at great cost. If that weren't enough, their relatively slow revolutions meant that less heat had to be put back into the boiler feed water to create steam. That's a fuel cost savings.
Overall, the power plant of the Olympic class design was a wise choice for a company intent upon making profits hauling passengers.
-- David G. Brown
Passenger vessels take in money only once per voyage -- the day people board. After that, everything is expense from the meals to the lumps of coal in the furnaces. There are only two ways to increase the net/net bottom line profit: (1.) cut costs; or, (2.) raise ticket prices. Ticket prices are fixed pretty much by what the market will bear. A shipping company has to make a significant difference over its competition in order to raise prices without losing customers. For instance, reducing the five-day open ocean passage to four days. This means shaving a full 24 hours off the duration of the trip. Such an increase in speed was possible, but at great cost. As speed increase by the square, fuel burn goes up by the cube. So, those Blue Riband winners were in today's terms, "gas hogs."
If you graph the amount of extra ticket value from a faster voyage against the increased costs, the results are disappointing. Depending on the power plant it is possible that the cost of fuel can never be offset by higher ticket prices. It was the overall high cost of speed that in modern times killed the Concorde despite a public demand for short, fast flights.
"Up-and-down" triple expansion engines were well understood in the early 20th century. Designers over the previous 50 years had eliminated most of the causes for failure. This was their prime virtue -- dependability. A ship with a "blown" engine collects no ticket revenue while repairs are made at great cost. If that weren't enough, their relatively slow revolutions meant that less heat had to be put back into the boiler feed water to create steam. That's a fuel cost savings.
Overall, the power plant of the Olympic class design was a wise choice for a company intent upon making profits hauling passengers.
-- David G. Brown
Mike Spooner
Member
Hi David,
I would agree on some of your comments. However when it come to engine choice. You say quite rightly that H&W had eliminated most of the causes for failures for expansions engines. Therefore was a wiser choice to use a expansion engines? But the end of day they still used a turbine! Now if you are looking for the most reliable engine why they did they use three quadruple expansion engines? We hear they got the idea using the turbine as fitted into the Laurentic ship and prove to be 15% more efficient than other ship of simple size. The other ship Laurentic she is compared to with her sister ship Magantic. Question if the turbine proved to be the right choice for Laurentic why they not use it on the Magantic? After all the Laurentic was built first and maiden voyage 29 April 1908. As maiden voyage for Magantic 17 June 1909?. Or had they run into trouble with the turbine?
Mike.
I would agree on some of your comments. However when it come to engine choice. You say quite rightly that H&W had eliminated most of the causes for failures for expansions engines. Therefore was a wiser choice to use a expansion engines? But the end of day they still used a turbine! Now if you are looking for the most reliable engine why they did they use three quadruple expansion engines? We hear they got the idea using the turbine as fitted into the Laurentic ship and prove to be 15% more efficient than other ship of simple size. The other ship Laurentic she is compared to with her sister ship Magantic. Question if the turbine proved to be the right choice for Laurentic why they not use it on the Magantic? After all the Laurentic was built first and maiden voyage 29 April 1908. As maiden voyage for Magantic 17 June 1909?. Or had they run into trouble with the turbine?
Mike.
The problem with your statement, Mike, is that the Olympic-class came off the slipways with outboard screws powered by triple expansion engines, not quadruple expansion as was the case with Megantic (stupid name, in my not-so-humble opinion). The centerline screw was the turbine.
Now the big thing was that, in service and at speed, Lucy not only vibrated, but vibrated so badly that unless some young lassies in steerage were ridiculously desperate for some special alone time, both second class and steerage were damn near uninhabitable.
Now the big thing was that, in service and at speed, Lucy not only vibrated, but vibrated so badly that unless some young lassies in steerage were ridiculously desperate for some special alone time, both second class and steerage were damn near uninhabitable.
Jim Currie
Member
The most important statistic concerning a merchant ship...cargo or passenger, is her earning capacity. Basically, this means the amount of useable cubic space. A ship has two basic tonnages... Gross and Displacement.
In 1912m Gross tonnage was reckoned in units of 100 cubic feet to the long ton.
Displacement tonnage was simply the weight of water displaced by the ship when she floated. It was the weight of the ship and everything in her at a given time. The statistics Olympic and Titanic were as follows:
Olympic...Gross 45, 324 tons. Displacement 52,067 tons.
Titanic.....Gross 45, 328 tons. Displacement 52,310 tons.
Differences 1, 004 tons 252 tons.
The foregoing tells us that a Light ship, Titanic was 252 tons heavier than a light ship Olympic and had 100,400 extra useable cubic capacity. However, the external dimensions of the ships were almost the same.
Unlike, Olympic, the forward end of Titanic's A deck on each side was enclosed. This area alone was almost enough to account for the extra 1004 gross tons.
The extra steel, brass, and glass required for that enclosure would account for part of the 252-ton weight difference but not all of it.
Hope this helps.
In 1912m Gross tonnage was reckoned in units of 100 cubic feet to the long ton.
Displacement tonnage was simply the weight of water displaced by the ship when she floated. It was the weight of the ship and everything in her at a given time. The statistics Olympic and Titanic were as follows:
Olympic...Gross 45, 324 tons. Displacement 52,067 tons.
Titanic.....Gross 45, 328 tons. Displacement 52,310 tons.
Differences 1, 004 tons 252 tons.
The foregoing tells us that a Light ship, Titanic was 252 tons heavier than a light ship Olympic and had 100,400 extra useable cubic capacity. However, the external dimensions of the ships were almost the same.
Unlike, Olympic, the forward end of Titanic's A deck on each side was enclosed. This area alone was almost enough to account for the extra 1004 gross tons.
The extra steel, brass, and glass required for that enclosure would account for part of the 252-ton weight difference but not all of it.
Hope this helps.
David G. Brown
RIP
Military ships had been using turbines for only a few years when the Olympic class went on the drawing boards. HMS Dreadnought was the first all turbine warship when it was launched in 1906. H&W was just beginning iron work on the first two White Star vessels that year. A Navy can justify taking risks on new equipment if that results in a more effective warship. You only get one chance to lose a war. Lusitania, Cunard's first 4-stack greyhound, was built with all Parsons turbines. I have seen it published that Lucy's props were coupled to the turbines because reduction gears suitable to handle the power did not yet exist. This forced the ship's turbines to rotate far slower than the RPM for maximum efficiency. This problem was most noticed at slower speeds and less at high. In other words, the Parsons prime movers were far from perfect. They were more of a glimpse of the future than the best solution for a ship in the first decade of the 20th century.
There is evidence that H&W recognized the future. Notice a turbine powered the center shaft of the design. As I recall, this turbine operated on less than ambient air pressure. It used the low pressure created by cooling steam from the two reciprocating engines. Good idea for squeezing every last ounce of thrust out of that expensive coal in the bunkers.
Once reduction gears caught up with the power demands, turbines were able to run at more efficient speeds. That did not happen until about mid-way through WW-1 and four years after Titanic sank. Even so, there is no clutch pedal or gear shift lever on a steam turbine. They all rotate in one direction. This makes slowing, stopping, and backing down a problem. The installations I've seen solve the problem by adding a smaller reversing turbine. Steam is normally fed to the forward machine. If reverse is necessary, the engineers have to shut down steam to the forward turbine and then open the valves for the reversing turbine. Builds up muscles like Popeye's without the need for spinach. Some multi-screw ships only had reversing turbines on their outboard shafts. There's only so much room in an engine compartment.
-- David G. Brown
There is evidence that H&W recognized the future. Notice a turbine powered the center shaft of the design. As I recall, this turbine operated on less than ambient air pressure. It used the low pressure created by cooling steam from the two reciprocating engines. Good idea for squeezing every last ounce of thrust out of that expensive coal in the bunkers.
Once reduction gears caught up with the power demands, turbines were able to run at more efficient speeds. That did not happen until about mid-way through WW-1 and four years after Titanic sank. Even so, there is no clutch pedal or gear shift lever on a steam turbine. They all rotate in one direction. This makes slowing, stopping, and backing down a problem. The installations I've seen solve the problem by adding a smaller reversing turbine. Steam is normally fed to the forward machine. If reverse is necessary, the engineers have to shut down steam to the forward turbine and then open the valves for the reversing turbine. Builds up muscles like Popeye's without the need for spinach. Some multi-screw ships only had reversing turbines on their outboard shafts. There's only so much room in an engine compartment.
-- David G. Brown
Rob Lawes
Member
Not quite David. The first all turbine warship built for the Royal Navy was the Destroyer, HMS Viper commissioned in 1900. The RN also purchased another all turbine hull, which was converted into a destroyer that same year, commissioned as HMS Cobra however, Viper was the first ship built from the keel up for the RN.
Yours Aye.
Rob.
Mike Spooner
Member
Hi Kos 01 member,
I think you must of misunderstand me or I did not put I across clearly.
I am well aware the Olympic & Titanic wing engines were triple expansion with a centre turbine engine. The point is it been said that the expansion engine whether a triple or quadruple type are more reliable tried and tested than a turbine. Therefore is the safe choice to use.
But in the end they have used a turbine engine! If the expansion engines are the right choice why didn't they use three quadruple as used on other ships for White Star.The first ship built for White Star by H&W to use this combination was the Laurentic maiden voyage 29 April1908. All evidence showed the ship was 15% more efficiency than other ships of the same size. But as for the sister ship Magantic built at a later a date maiden voyage 17 June 1909 the combination choice is dropped? Just two quadruple are used! Or had they run into problems with the turbine due to H&W lack of experience in turbine technology?
Mike.
I think you must of misunderstand me or I did not put I across clearly.
I am well aware the Olympic & Titanic wing engines were triple expansion with a centre turbine engine. The point is it been said that the expansion engine whether a triple or quadruple type are more reliable tried and tested than a turbine. Therefore is the safe choice to use.
But in the end they have used a turbine engine! If the expansion engines are the right choice why didn't they use three quadruple as used on other ships for White Star.The first ship built for White Star by H&W to use this combination was the Laurentic maiden voyage 29 April1908. All evidence showed the ship was 15% more efficiency than other ships of the same size. But as for the sister ship Magantic built at a later a date maiden voyage 17 June 1909 the combination choice is dropped? Just two quadruple are used! Or had they run into problems with the turbine due to H&W lack of experience in turbine technology?
Mike.
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